1 00:00:31,132 --> 00:00:35,136 [ Objects Rustling ] 2 00:00:39,573 --> 00:00:43,744 Michael, uh, you remember me from the last time you and I talked? 3 00:00:43,744 --> 00:00:45,879 About a week ago? 4 00:00:45,879 --> 00:00:48,982 You see this camera? You're going to have to say "yes"... 5 00:00:48,982 --> 00:00:51,319 so that camera can take down everything you say. 6 00:00:51,319 --> 00:00:55,356 Because that camera can't take down something when you shake your head. 7 00:00:55,356 --> 00:00:59,260 Can you say "yes" for us? Let me hear you say, "Yes." Yes. 8 00:00:59,260 --> 00:01:02,496 That's pretty good. How about a little bit louder than that? Yes. 9 00:01:02,496 --> 00:01:06,567 And we talked about what happened on the 13th of May? 10 00:01:06,567 --> 00:01:09,203 You remember that? Yeah. 11 00:01:09,203 --> 00:01:15,743 Now, Michael, do you know what it is to, uh-- to tell the truth about things? 12 00:01:15,743 --> 00:01:18,246 You're gonna have to say yes. You can't shake your head. Yes. 13 00:01:18,246 --> 00:01:22,983 Okay. What does it mean when you have to tell the truth about things? 14 00:01:24,285 --> 00:01:26,854 Don't lie. Don't lie. That's right. 15 00:01:26,854 --> 00:01:29,957 And do you know what happens to people who lie? 16 00:01:31,459 --> 00:01:32,726 Hmm? Yeah. 17 00:01:32,726 --> 00:01:34,762 What happens to them? They get hurt. 18 00:01:34,762 --> 00:01:36,764 They get hurt. 19 00:01:40,868 --> 00:01:44,472 [ Sirens Wailing ] 20 00:01:50,043 --> 00:01:51,479 [ Horns Honking ] 21 00:01:54,648 --> 00:01:57,318 [ Man ] Yes, the big story on Action News tonight is the effort to evict MOVE... 22 00:01:57,318 --> 00:02:00,288 from its house on the 6200 block of Osage Avenue. 23 00:02:00,288 --> 00:02:02,623 The effort has turned into a disaster. 24 00:02:02,623 --> 00:02:07,094 The fire is now five-alarm, still raging out of control as you can see. 25 00:02:07,094 --> 00:02:10,264 [ Man ] An unknown number of heavily-armed MOVE members continue at large, 26 00:02:10,264 --> 00:02:12,433 possibly roaming the alleyways. 27 00:02:12,433 --> 00:02:16,770 [ Man #2 ] Going in, everybody knew that MOVE would resist anything. 28 00:02:16,770 --> 00:02:20,274 [ Woman ] While the police will say that they come here to arrest people, 29 00:02:20,274 --> 00:02:22,142 we have done nothing wrong. 30 00:02:22,142 --> 00:02:24,778 We do not want policemen killed. We do not want people in the house killed. 31 00:02:24,778 --> 00:02:27,348 [ Man ] Fellow officer, James Ramp, was killed seven years ago. 32 00:02:27,348 --> 00:02:29,149 They will never forget that. 33 00:02:29,149 --> 00:02:32,853 Okay. This is unconfirmed. We've got to emphasize this is unconfirmed. 34 00:02:32,853 --> 00:02:35,789 But Channel 10 technician, Fran Hardy reports-- 35 00:02:35,789 --> 00:02:38,926 [ Woman ] An incendiary device was dropped out of that helicopter. 36 00:02:38,926 --> 00:02:41,929 Nobody around here has ever seen anything like this. 37 00:02:41,929 --> 00:02:46,600 [ Woman #2 ] We expect that maybe 60, perhaps more, homes have gone up in flames. 38 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,538 I stand fully accountable for the actions that took place tonight. 39 00:02:50,538 --> 00:02:54,675 [ Man ] How did an attempt to arrest MOVE members become an inferno... 40 00:02:54,675 --> 00:02:58,312 that killed 11 people and destroyed 61 homes? 41 00:02:58,312 --> 00:03:03,150 [ Man #2 ] You can call the group reactionists, revolutionaries, terrorists. 42 00:03:03,150 --> 00:03:08,422 That was a decision-- to let the fire burn. 43 00:03:25,473 --> 00:03:28,141 [ Tape Whirring ] 44 00:03:28,141 --> 00:03:29,677 [ Stops ] 45 00:03:29,677 --> 00:03:32,480 [ Chattering ] 46 00:03:41,589 --> 00:03:46,360 On May 13, 1985, 47 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,830 years of conflict between the city of Philadelphia... 48 00:03:49,830 --> 00:03:53,100 and a small, urban group known as MOVE... 49 00:03:53,100 --> 00:03:57,104 ended in a violent, daylong encounter... 50 00:03:57,104 --> 00:03:59,773 between the groups' members and the Philadelphia police. 51 00:04:01,742 --> 00:04:06,980 It was one of the most devastating days in the modern history of the city. 52 00:04:08,582 --> 00:04:11,585 Before we call the first witness-- [ Man Clears Throat ] 53 00:04:11,585 --> 00:04:14,087 I want to tell you about this special commission. 54 00:04:15,456 --> 00:04:19,760 We are men and women, black and white, 55 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,262 guided by our own attitudes and beliefs. 56 00:04:24,197 --> 00:04:28,369 What we hope to accomplish is to begin healing the wounds... 57 00:04:28,369 --> 00:04:33,641 caused by the failure to resolve conflicting lifestyles in a peaceful way. 58 00:04:51,725 --> 00:04:54,562 [ Man ] Six, five, four, three-- [ Tone ] 59 00:04:56,897 --> 00:05:01,902 This is MOVE, the people in an organization that admits to being totally revolutionary. 60 00:05:01,902 --> 00:05:03,737 For the past four years, 61 00:05:03,737 --> 00:05:06,340 they have lived in the Powelton Village area of West Philadelphia, 62 00:05:06,340 --> 00:05:09,577 often running into conflicts with police. 63 00:05:09,577 --> 00:05:11,679 Their personal appearance has brought stares... 64 00:05:11,679 --> 00:05:14,515 and some expressions of disapproval from the community. 65 00:05:14,515 --> 00:05:17,485 But it what they do that counts, not how they look. 66 00:05:17,485 --> 00:05:21,522 In everything from work habits to child raising, MOVE is revolutionary. 67 00:05:21,522 --> 00:05:24,425 Uh, I was indoctrinated with a philosophy in the Panthers... 68 00:05:24,425 --> 00:05:28,429 that revolution only meant picking up a gun and going out and murdering somebody. 69 00:05:28,429 --> 00:05:32,700 I never thought that revolution consisted of revolutionizing myself... 70 00:05:32,700 --> 00:05:37,037 to get away from the things that caused me to wanna revolt. 71 00:05:37,037 --> 00:05:41,041 [ Man ] MOVE does not believe in technology. They use a wood-burning stove for heat, 72 00:05:41,041 --> 00:05:43,110 and they have no electricity. 73 00:05:43,110 --> 00:05:46,179 But they do have cars, and they have a telephone. Why? 74 00:05:46,179 --> 00:05:50,117 All the answers are in the guidelines, their bible left by John Africa. 75 00:05:52,820 --> 00:05:58,692 [ Man ] Miss Sims, can you describe for me what the philosophy of MOVE was? 76 00:05:58,692 --> 00:06:04,297 What did John Africa teach with regard to the society in which you found yourself living? 77 00:06:04,297 --> 00:06:06,333 You're asking what was being taught? 78 00:06:06,333 --> 00:06:07,468 Yes, ma'am. 79 00:06:07,468 --> 00:06:11,304 Okay. Um, the absolute truth. 80 00:06:12,840 --> 00:06:16,376 We were being taught about this system. 81 00:06:17,411 --> 00:06:19,580 The corruption in this system. 82 00:06:21,415 --> 00:06:27,020 But mainly, it was... just the absolute truth. 83 00:06:27,020 --> 00:06:33,561 What John Africa did was... expose the lie in the system. 84 00:06:33,561 --> 00:06:35,362 Uncover it. 85 00:06:35,362 --> 00:06:38,165 Could you describe what you mean by the word "the system," please? 86 00:06:38,165 --> 00:06:39,967 The system. The establishment. You. 87 00:06:44,037 --> 00:06:46,740 [ Man ] Philadelphia is a tortured city. 88 00:06:46,740 --> 00:06:49,409 Trash piles up at the curbline. 89 00:06:49,409 --> 00:06:52,079 Kids are afraid to walk to school. 90 00:06:52,079 --> 00:06:54,948 Abandoned homes pockmark the ghetto. 91 00:06:54,948 --> 00:06:59,587 Philadelphia needs a strong man for a tough job. 92 00:06:59,587 --> 00:07:02,189 Philadelphia needs Frank Rizzo as mayor. 93 00:07:04,057 --> 00:07:07,795 A small, vocal minority among us... 94 00:07:07,795 --> 00:07:12,232 seeks to destroy the heritage of 1776. 95 00:07:12,232 --> 00:07:18,238 We must be ever-vigilant that this minority does not impose its philosophy... 96 00:07:18,238 --> 00:07:21,274 on the unwilling majority of Americans. 97 00:07:23,477 --> 00:07:27,481 [ Man ] In their vigilant effort to maintain close contact with mother Earth, 98 00:07:27,481 --> 00:07:31,351 the MOVE members are breaking up the cement of the sidewalk around their property. 99 00:07:36,990 --> 00:07:39,226 Yeah, life. 100 00:07:40,628 --> 00:07:43,931 [ Mutters ] But you are not animals. I mean-- 101 00:07:43,931 --> 00:07:45,733 Why not? I don't want to be personal. 102 00:07:45,733 --> 00:07:48,268 Wait a minute. Why not? Yes, why not? 103 00:07:48,268 --> 00:07:52,806 We are animals, because our reference is no different than the reference of animals. 104 00:07:52,806 --> 00:07:54,608 There's only one reference, and that's life. 105 00:07:54,608 --> 00:07:58,245 That's what MOVE is about. Life. Truth. That's our religion. 106 00:08:02,950 --> 00:08:06,754 We see John Africa in the same way that people saw Jesus Christ... 107 00:08:06,754 --> 00:08:11,859 because of his carpentry, because of his simple way of living, and so forth. 108 00:08:11,859 --> 00:08:17,330 Now, we know that John Africa is a man who can explain Jesus Christ. 109 00:08:20,701 --> 00:08:24,872 When Reverend Audrey Bronson wants to practice her religion, nobody beats her up. 110 00:08:26,339 --> 00:08:28,341 But when MOVE wanted to practice their religion, 111 00:08:28,341 --> 00:08:31,144 people started talking about, uh, 112 00:08:31,144 --> 00:08:34,147 "It's not done that way." 113 00:08:34,147 --> 00:08:39,953 There are Catholics and Methodists, evangelists, theologians, you name it. 114 00:08:39,953 --> 00:08:42,790 We were the religion of life. 115 00:08:42,790 --> 00:08:47,394 Where is it written that we could not have a religion of our own? 116 00:08:47,394 --> 00:08:50,330 Your brother, Vincent Leapheart was John Africa, is that correct? 117 00:08:50,330 --> 00:08:55,068 My brother, Vincent Leapheart, was my brother. 118 00:08:55,068 --> 00:08:58,739 John Africa was the founder of the MOVE organization. 119 00:08:58,739 --> 00:09:01,541 And they were one and the same? 120 00:09:01,541 --> 00:09:04,912 I said my brother was my brother. 121 00:09:04,912 --> 00:09:09,182 And I said John Africa was the founder of the MOVE organization. 122 00:09:09,182 --> 00:09:12,920 John-- Vincent Leapheart is my brother. 123 00:09:20,828 --> 00:09:25,065 [ Man ] When Michael was about two years of age, he was taken by his mother... 124 00:09:25,065 --> 00:09:30,070 to a residence occupied by members of an organization called MOVE. 125 00:09:30,070 --> 00:09:33,273 And Michael was subsequently given the name of Birdie Africa. 126 00:09:35,042 --> 00:09:38,345 Michael Ward was, of course, no more a member of MOVE... 127 00:09:38,345 --> 00:09:42,015 than a child of Republican or Democratic parents... 128 00:09:42,015 --> 00:09:44,517 would be styled by a particular party label. 129 00:09:44,517 --> 00:09:48,288 He was throughout, an absolutely innocent, 130 00:09:48,288 --> 00:09:52,325 guiltless, and under the circumstances, vulnerable child and youngster. 131 00:09:53,927 --> 00:09:57,631 ** [ Children Singing ] 132 00:10:39,172 --> 00:10:44,311 Now, when you go to school and you embrace that education, 133 00:10:44,311 --> 00:10:48,148 the very first thing you are taught in school is separation-- 134 00:10:48,148 --> 00:10:51,819 Is categorization, alienation, conflict. 135 00:10:51,819 --> 00:10:54,922 You're taught black, white, blue, green. 136 00:10:54,922 --> 00:10:58,992 Up, down, back, forth. Taught, uh, Protestant, Catholic. 137 00:10:58,992 --> 00:11:02,696 Taught Yale, Harvard. Conflict. War. 138 00:11:02,696 --> 00:11:07,968 You know, if a child does not know that he is black and I am white, 139 00:11:07,968 --> 00:11:09,770 if he is not taught that categorization, 140 00:11:09,770 --> 00:11:11,471 if he is not taught that separation, 141 00:11:11,471 --> 00:11:14,708 in the place of that, all he can gravitate to, 142 00:11:14,708 --> 00:11:17,610 all he can know is harmony, is unity, is love. 143 00:11:35,729 --> 00:11:37,630 [ Children ] Life! Life! 144 00:11:39,132 --> 00:11:41,201 [ Brown ] 145 00:11:41,201 --> 00:11:44,104 [ Michael ] Some of it. [ Brown ] Some of it? What did you like particularly? 146 00:11:45,172 --> 00:11:48,708 Watermelon, mangoes... 147 00:11:48,708 --> 00:11:51,211 and sweet potatoes and onions. 148 00:11:51,211 --> 00:11:53,981 [ Brown ] And onions. Did you all eat any meat at all? 149 00:11:53,981 --> 00:11:57,550 Only one time we ate raw chicken. 150 00:11:57,550 --> 00:12:00,587 [ Brown ] Why would the adults eat cooked food and the children not eat cooked food? 151 00:12:00,587 --> 00:12:02,089 Do you know? 152 00:12:02,089 --> 00:12:04,024 [ Michael ] They said they wasn't used to raw food. 153 00:12:04,024 --> 00:12:07,160 They weren't used to raw food, and the children were used to raw food. 154 00:12:11,164 --> 00:12:13,133 [ Man ] 155 00:12:23,911 --> 00:12:26,980 [ Brown ] Were you all ever punished for taking the food or anything? 156 00:12:28,916 --> 00:12:31,584 Yeah. Did they punish you when you-- 157 00:12:31,584 --> 00:12:34,187 They had meetings on us. They had meetings? 158 00:12:34,187 --> 00:12:36,289 Would they ever hit the children? 159 00:12:38,125 --> 00:12:41,261 Uh, so you didn't get any spankings or anything like that? 160 00:12:41,261 --> 00:12:44,697 They didn't believe in spanking. They didn't believe in spankings. 161 00:12:44,697 --> 00:12:49,937 I see. Did you, uh-- When they holler at the children, what would the children do? 162 00:12:49,937 --> 00:12:51,872 Cry. They would cry? 163 00:12:51,872 --> 00:12:54,207 Did they ever holler at you? Yes. 164 00:12:54,207 --> 00:12:56,509 Did you cry when you were hollered at? Yeah. 165 00:12:59,980 --> 00:13:03,250 Did they-- Did they say they loved you? Yeah. 166 00:13:03,250 --> 00:13:05,052 Did you love them? 167 00:13:22,970 --> 00:13:26,473 I came in contact with MOVE back in 1974. 168 00:13:26,473 --> 00:13:29,342 We had a number of rap sessions with youngsters... 169 00:13:29,342 --> 00:13:32,512 in terms of trying to offer a different point of view. 170 00:13:32,512 --> 00:13:35,815 Did they appear to you to be violent at all? 171 00:13:35,815 --> 00:13:41,421 No, it basically appeared to be a progressive, uh, political organization... 172 00:13:41,421 --> 00:13:44,091 pretty much concerned about the issues... 173 00:13:44,091 --> 00:13:46,626 that impacted on the black community. 174 00:13:46,626 --> 00:13:51,965 [ Lytton ] Officer Cresse, was there any indication that you were aware of... 175 00:13:51,965 --> 00:13:55,335 that, uh, the MOVE members were potentially violent? 176 00:13:57,270 --> 00:14:00,507 Other than being, uh, vocal, no, sir. 177 00:14:01,674 --> 00:14:03,643 [ Shouting ] 178 00:14:03,643 --> 00:14:06,379 They can put out weird things like you can hear me use profanity. 179 00:14:06,379 --> 00:14:11,484 But is it possible to describe a maniac, a profane, obscene, pornographic freak... 180 00:14:11,484 --> 00:14:14,154 - [ Cheering ] - without using profane words? 181 00:14:14,154 --> 00:14:16,924 Motherfuckers! [ Cheering ] 182 00:14:20,860 --> 00:14:26,566 Do you have information concerning how many arrests occurred involving MOVE? 183 00:14:26,566 --> 00:14:29,136 There was 141 demonstrations. 184 00:14:30,971 --> 00:14:33,106 There was 97 court cases. 185 00:14:35,375 --> 00:14:39,746 There was eight meetings, and there was 193 arrests. 186 00:14:41,581 --> 00:14:43,850 I have as just as much right... 187 00:14:43,850 --> 00:14:46,653 and my brother got just as much right to speak as you. 188 00:14:46,653 --> 00:14:49,722 So what you doin' arrogantly gaveling us down? 189 00:14:49,722 --> 00:14:52,559 This is not a forum for your political views. What is it? 190 00:14:52,559 --> 00:14:55,929 Do you understand that? Do you understand that I was brought here... 191 00:14:55,929 --> 00:14:58,865 because of my beliefs, because of my views? 192 00:14:58,865 --> 00:15:01,768 I object. I think the witness, at this point, 193 00:15:01,768 --> 00:15:04,237 is badgering the judge. 194 00:15:04,237 --> 00:15:08,275 They were, in fact, telling the truth in the courtroom, 195 00:15:08,275 --> 00:15:10,743 and because the judge could not dispute it, 196 00:15:10,743 --> 00:15:15,182 because the judge had went to Harvard and Yale and Cornell... 197 00:15:15,182 --> 00:15:18,585 to learn what law was. 198 00:15:18,585 --> 00:15:21,854 They could not understand how a people could stand there, 199 00:15:21,854 --> 00:15:26,259 looking as they did, but yet knowing more, in fact, than they did. 200 00:15:26,259 --> 00:15:32,032 And this called for many contempts, many beatings in the courtroom. 201 00:15:32,032 --> 00:15:35,168 And it was like a repeat over and over again. 202 00:15:37,437 --> 00:15:43,943 Officer Cresse, directing your attention to approximately March 30 of 1976, 203 00:15:43,943 --> 00:15:48,781 what, if anything occurred during that time period with regard to MOVE. 204 00:15:48,781 --> 00:15:52,585 Twenty-four-hour surveillance was established at the MOVE compound... 205 00:15:52,585 --> 00:15:54,954 at 309 North 33rd Street. 206 00:15:54,954 --> 00:15:59,592 Around the same time, was there any, um, 207 00:15:59,592 --> 00:16:02,595 situation that arose with regard to an infant? 208 00:16:02,595 --> 00:16:04,431 Yes, sir. Could you describe that, sir? 209 00:16:04,431 --> 00:16:05,398 Okay. 210 00:16:09,169 --> 00:16:10,637 [ Inaudible ] 211 00:16:12,305 --> 00:16:14,174 Just bear with me, please. 212 00:16:19,246 --> 00:16:22,015 [ Papers Shuffling ] 213 00:16:25,152 --> 00:16:27,287 [ Chattering ] 214 00:16:27,287 --> 00:16:29,022 [ Horn Honks ] 215 00:16:29,022 --> 00:16:31,524 [ Man ] On March 28 of this year, at about 4:00 in the morning, 216 00:16:31,524 --> 00:16:35,828 some MOVE members were returning from one of many sentences in the city jail. 217 00:16:35,828 --> 00:16:38,265 The MOVE people say they weren't making a lot of noise. 218 00:16:38,265 --> 00:16:41,768 But someone in the neighborhood complained to the police. 219 00:16:41,768 --> 00:16:46,506 What happened next is the beginning of a controversy that has yet to be investigated. 220 00:16:46,506 --> 00:16:49,008 Somehow an argument led to a scuffle. 221 00:16:49,008 --> 00:16:51,511 Police reinforcements were quickly on the scene, 222 00:16:51,511 --> 00:16:54,013 and MOVE put up resistance. 223 00:16:54,013 --> 00:16:57,016 By the time it was over, six policemen reported injuries, 224 00:16:57,016 --> 00:16:59,052 six members of MOVE were arrested, 225 00:16:59,052 --> 00:17:01,854 and later, it was found that three-week-old Life Africa, 226 00:17:01,854 --> 00:17:04,023 one of the MOVE babies, was dead. 227 00:17:04,023 --> 00:17:05,192 [ Screams ] 228 00:17:12,832 --> 00:17:16,069 We went upstairs to inquire reporters there. 229 00:17:16,069 --> 00:17:19,972 And we saw-- We were led into a dark room, 230 00:17:19,972 --> 00:17:25,312 and we saw what appeared to be the remains of a baby. 231 00:17:25,312 --> 00:17:28,047 And it was their contention that this baby had been killed... 232 00:17:28,047 --> 00:17:31,017 in a police raid. 233 00:17:31,017 --> 00:17:35,422 Subsequent to that, I introduced the resolution to the city council, 234 00:17:35,422 --> 00:17:37,390 calling for an investigation. 235 00:17:37,390 --> 00:17:39,892 It never took place. 236 00:17:39,892 --> 00:17:43,163 And I felt at that time that the MOVE people were being harassed... 237 00:17:43,163 --> 00:17:44,997 and that it was a racial problem. 238 00:17:46,533 --> 00:17:50,937 Shortly thereafter, I received some letters... 239 00:17:50,937 --> 00:17:53,306 from the people who live on 32nd and Pearl Street. 240 00:17:55,108 --> 00:17:57,844 And they indicated that they were displeased with MOVE, 241 00:17:57,844 --> 00:18:00,079 and they wanted to meet me. 242 00:18:00,079 --> 00:18:02,349 And I went to the meeting expecting to see... 243 00:18:06,219 --> 00:18:10,223 mostly Caucasian people complaining about MOVE. 244 00:18:10,223 --> 00:18:14,060 And I was surprised when I entered the home... 245 00:18:14,060 --> 00:18:20,032 that most of the people there were-- were black people, just ordinary black people. 246 00:18:20,032 --> 00:18:24,737 And for the first time I realized that it was not a racial problem with MOVE. 247 00:18:24,737 --> 00:18:29,742 But that it was something else that I just did not understand. 248 00:18:29,742 --> 00:18:34,681 And then I learned that unless you did everything that they wanted you to do, 249 00:18:36,048 --> 00:18:38,285 uh, you were an enemy. 250 00:18:48,461 --> 00:18:52,299 [ Man ] On May 20, 1977, MOVE brandished weapons... 251 00:18:52,299 --> 00:18:54,801 from their Powelton Village headquarters platform... 252 00:18:54,801 --> 00:18:57,937 saying, "No longer will we be beaten or intimidated by the police... 253 00:18:57,937 --> 00:18:59,739 without a like response." 254 00:19:03,310 --> 00:19:05,512 [ Lytton ] To your knowledge, did any of the members of the MOVE organization... 255 00:19:05,512 --> 00:19:06,413 ever possess any weapons? 256 00:19:08,147 --> 00:19:10,417 - Not to my knowledge. - Nor mine. 257 00:19:10,417 --> 00:19:14,287 [ Lytton ] Have you ever seen the pictures of May 20, 1977, at Powelton Village, 258 00:19:14,287 --> 00:19:17,190 where people are carrying what appear, at least, to be weapons? Mm-hmm. Yes, I have. 259 00:19:17,190 --> 00:19:19,692 Were those members of the MOVE organization? [ With Mrs. James ] Yes. 260 00:19:19,692 --> 00:19:21,261 Were they weapons? I don't know. 261 00:19:23,129 --> 00:19:25,832 I don't want anyone to think that I'm insulting their intelligence, 262 00:19:25,832 --> 00:19:29,869 but when you have anything like that, 263 00:19:29,869 --> 00:19:32,972 regardless to what it looks like, 264 00:19:32,972 --> 00:19:36,142 if it is found inside of the house... 265 00:19:36,142 --> 00:19:39,212 or not found inside the house and it is brought out... 266 00:19:39,212 --> 00:19:41,948 and it is found to be inoperable, 267 00:19:41,948 --> 00:19:44,016 it is found not to work at all, 268 00:19:44,016 --> 00:19:48,355 as far as I'm concerned, it's not a weapon. 269 00:19:48,355 --> 00:19:50,623 But let me be clear. 270 00:19:50,623 --> 00:19:53,159 This can be a weapon. 271 00:19:53,159 --> 00:19:57,464 But I'm talking about to the point of a weapon that can fire. 272 00:19:59,666 --> 00:20:02,702 It's just like you said-- What appeared to be weapons. 273 00:20:24,324 --> 00:20:27,894 In my view, it seemed to suggest a turning point. 274 00:20:27,894 --> 00:20:30,997 It was the point which it became clear... 275 00:20:30,997 --> 00:20:36,068 that MOVE, in fact, could become a violent organization. 276 00:20:36,068 --> 00:20:39,706 Uh, would, in fact, fight, 277 00:20:39,706 --> 00:20:43,610 would, in fact, use weapons in order to accomplish their mission. 278 00:20:45,445 --> 00:20:50,249 They named the game. And I assure you, they lose. 279 00:20:50,249 --> 00:20:51,951 [ Man ] We'll do what's necessary. 280 00:20:51,951 --> 00:20:53,920 [ Male Interviewer ] What is that? The strategy of John Africa. 281 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:55,722 What is that? Our only defense. 282 00:20:55,722 --> 00:20:58,291 What is that? The strategy of John Africa. 283 00:20:58,291 --> 00:21:00,893 You aren't tellin' me anything. You're just saying "the strategy of John Africa." 284 00:21:00,893 --> 00:21:04,664 Hey, I wouldn't tell my strategy to you. [ Crowd Laughing ] 285 00:21:17,944 --> 00:21:20,246 We ain't talkin' about hurtin' nobody's religion. 286 00:21:20,246 --> 00:21:22,281 We ain't talkin' about killin' off nobody's religion. 287 00:21:22,281 --> 00:21:24,584 Rizzo is talkin' about religious persecution. 288 00:21:24,584 --> 00:21:28,054 Don't question the person tellin' the truth. Question the person that's tellin' the lie. 289 00:21:28,054 --> 00:21:29,221 - All right! - [ Crowd Chatters ] 290 00:21:38,431 --> 00:21:42,001 Only in a democracy could they get away with what they're getting away with. 291 00:22:06,959 --> 00:22:09,261 [ Chattering ] 292 00:22:09,261 --> 00:22:11,798 People are people regardless of their color, their skin, 293 00:22:11,798 --> 00:22:13,433 their religion, their race or nothin'. 294 00:22:13,433 --> 00:22:16,102 They're still people. They can bleed. They can die. 295 00:22:16,102 --> 00:22:19,105 They can catch diseases. We can all go through the same situations. 296 00:22:19,105 --> 00:22:23,275 It's unnecessary for all of that. I really think it's unnecessary. 297 00:22:26,546 --> 00:22:30,683 And it's all going to boil down to a bunch of people getting hurt and killed over nothin'. 298 00:22:30,683 --> 00:22:32,885 Over nothin' that doesn't really make any sense. 299 00:22:37,724 --> 00:22:41,894 At 6:10 a.m., Mayor Rizzo finally, after 15 months of confrontation, 300 00:22:41,894 --> 00:22:44,731 used the force he threatened all along. 301 00:22:44,731 --> 00:22:48,034 [ Rizzo ] The police will be in there to drag them out by the backs of their necks. 302 00:22:48,034 --> 00:22:52,572 They're going to be taken by force if they resist. 303 00:22:52,572 --> 00:22:54,907 [ Man ] If police come in there with their hands, we'll use our hands. 304 00:22:54,907 --> 00:22:57,810 If they come in here with clubs, we'll use clubs. 305 00:22:57,810 --> 00:23:00,747 But if they come in here shootin' and killin' our women and children and our men, 306 00:23:00,747 --> 00:23:03,683 we will shoot back in defense of our lives. 307 00:23:03,683 --> 00:23:08,254 I've learned one thing as a policeman. You never underestimate your opponent. 308 00:23:08,254 --> 00:23:13,726 You always get in there faster with more than is necessary, and you overpower them. 309 00:23:13,726 --> 00:23:18,431 [ Man On Megaphone ] 310 00:23:30,009 --> 00:23:33,279 [ Man Narrating ] Stakeout personnel, using body shields, 311 00:23:33,279 --> 00:23:39,018 cover fireman as they position a portable deluge gun closer to the compound. 312 00:23:42,188 --> 00:23:45,692 [ Helicopter Whirring ] 313 00:23:48,394 --> 00:23:51,764 [ Gunfire ] 314 00:23:51,764 --> 00:23:53,866 [ Man Shouts ] Shots have been fired! 315 00:23:53,866 --> 00:23:57,269 [ Narrator ] Officers and firemen are wounded by gunfire. 316 00:23:57,269 --> 00:24:00,272 First deluge gun goes out of control. 317 00:24:01,608 --> 00:24:04,043 [ Gunfire Continues ] 318 00:24:06,713 --> 00:24:10,917 Other officers and firemen move in to pull the wounded personnel... 319 00:24:10,917 --> 00:24:12,785 out of the line of fire. 320 00:24:14,086 --> 00:24:17,056 Officer Ramp, shown here lying on his back, 321 00:24:17,056 --> 00:24:19,492 has now been mortally wounded. 322 00:24:19,492 --> 00:24:21,594 Officer Hesson, also wounded, 323 00:24:21,594 --> 00:24:24,564 crawls over and attempts to shield Officer Ramp. 324 00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:57,630 [ Woman ] Mr. Rendell, um, 325 00:24:57,630 --> 00:25:01,167 did you consider the MOVE organization to be a terrorist group? 326 00:25:01,167 --> 00:25:04,837 They had demonstrated a past history of violence. 327 00:25:04,837 --> 00:25:09,942 Uh, they had demonstrated a willingness to use violence, force... 328 00:25:09,942 --> 00:25:14,046 or the threat of violence or force to achieve their objectives. 329 00:25:14,046 --> 00:25:17,684 It was almost difficult, if not well nigh impossible, 330 00:25:17,684 --> 00:25:20,019 to deal with them in any rational basis... 331 00:25:20,019 --> 00:25:23,022 that their stated goals as a group... 332 00:25:23,022 --> 00:25:25,692 that was a back-to-nature group were, frankly, a bunch of bull. 333 00:25:27,059 --> 00:25:30,362 People who have killed one person, 334 00:25:30,362 --> 00:25:34,033 injured several others, people who threaten to blow up people's houses, 335 00:25:34,033 --> 00:25:38,037 people who threaten to shoot and kill neighbors, police, elected officials-- 336 00:25:38,037 --> 00:25:41,808 I think that's a pretty adequate description of the word "terrorist." 337 00:26:18,444 --> 00:26:22,281 With every step of the way, including the final act today, 338 00:26:22,281 --> 00:26:26,953 the police used commendable restraint, uh, and it was done for many reasons. 339 00:26:26,953 --> 00:26:30,256 Most of all because of the children who are present today. 340 00:26:30,256 --> 00:26:33,192 [ Woman ] There had been much concern on the part of many people... 341 00:26:33,192 --> 00:26:36,863 that the police would make a violent assault on the MOVE members. 342 00:26:36,863 --> 00:26:40,299 As it turned out, the police acted with precision and restraint. 343 00:26:40,299 --> 00:26:42,635 [ Man ] When one of the MOVE members came out of the window... 344 00:26:42,635 --> 00:26:44,637 with a cartridge case in one hand, 345 00:26:44,637 --> 00:26:47,406 a clip and with a knife in the other, 346 00:26:47,406 --> 00:26:50,276 he was hit on the top of the head with a steel helmet... 347 00:26:50,276 --> 00:26:52,278 and was taken into custody. 348 00:26:52,278 --> 00:26:54,280 That's what you're referring to. 349 00:26:59,952 --> 00:27:03,790 [ Shouting ] 350 00:27:03,790 --> 00:27:05,958 [ Man At Scene ] He's hittin' him. He's hittin' him. 351 00:27:05,958 --> 00:27:08,394 Hittin' him on the head. Kickin' him on the head! 352 00:27:10,897 --> 00:27:12,999 [ Man #2 ] I have no idea. I couldn't see. 353 00:27:12,999 --> 00:27:15,902 Cops, you're makin' a mistake doin' that. Your ass they are. 354 00:27:18,637 --> 00:27:22,641 The police probably would have been legally within their rights... 355 00:27:22,641 --> 00:27:25,577 to have killed all of the 12 people in that basement. 356 00:27:27,179 --> 00:27:29,816 [ Woman ] Do you believe this is a symbolic gesture, 357 00:27:29,816 --> 00:27:33,452 tearing their house down at this point, the very day of the shootout? 358 00:27:33,452 --> 00:27:36,088 [ Man ] I think behind it is the question we gotta ask is why. 359 00:27:45,998 --> 00:27:50,602 There's a suspicion that some shots had come from elsewhere. 360 00:27:50,602 --> 00:27:55,241 Walt Hunter from WCAU, by the way, swears that a shot was fired going in this direction. 361 00:28:05,451 --> 00:28:08,821 [ Man ] People who know us know that we're not terrorists. 362 00:28:08,821 --> 00:28:13,059 We fight cops because they're dirty. They're filthy. They're criminal. 363 00:28:13,059 --> 00:28:18,697 [ Rizzo ] The sad part of it is that this incident is not yet over. 364 00:28:18,697 --> 00:28:22,068 There will still be misguided voices in the community... 365 00:28:23,302 --> 00:28:25,905 seeking clemency for these criminals. 366 00:28:25,905 --> 00:28:29,041 [ Together ] Long live MOVE! Long live revolution! 367 00:28:29,041 --> 00:28:33,279 Long live John Africa! [ Woman ] It's the MOVE organization. 368 00:28:51,230 --> 00:28:55,534 [ Man ] What they should have done is shot that goddamn bum, 369 00:28:55,534 --> 00:28:57,736 and then there would have been no trouble today. 370 00:29:03,442 --> 00:29:07,179 This police department in Philadelphia could invade Cuba and win. 371 00:29:07,179 --> 00:29:13,552 What I'm saying, Tom Snyder, is that we are now trained and equipped to fight wars. 372 00:29:13,552 --> 00:29:18,791 [ Chanting ] Four more years, hell no! No more Rizzo! Got to go! 373 00:29:18,791 --> 00:29:23,529 Four more years, hell no! No more Rizzo! Got to go! 374 00:29:23,529 --> 00:29:25,764 Four more years, hell no! 375 00:29:27,033 --> 00:29:30,937 [ Crowd Cheering ] 376 00:29:32,204 --> 00:29:37,543 All of us, from all neighborhoods... 377 00:29:37,543 --> 00:29:39,111 from all walks of life... 378 00:29:39,111 --> 00:29:43,449 can solve the problem facing our city. 379 00:29:55,227 --> 00:29:58,230 [ Man ] Leapheart was asked how he felt when the verdict was read. 380 00:30:02,101 --> 00:30:04,470 What are your plans in terms of staying in Philadelphia... 381 00:30:04,470 --> 00:30:06,939 and trying to continue the MOVE cult? 382 00:30:06,939 --> 00:30:09,075 It's not a cult. It's an organization. 383 00:30:21,253 --> 00:30:24,590 When you appear to be different... 384 00:30:25,457 --> 00:30:27,994 you become angry, 385 00:30:27,994 --> 00:30:31,697 and you will do things out of the norm. 386 00:30:53,986 --> 00:30:57,256 [ Brown ] Did you ever think about leaving MOVE? 387 00:30:58,657 --> 00:31:00,026 Yeah. 388 00:31:00,026 --> 00:31:03,529 Uh, when was that? A long time ago. 389 00:31:03,529 --> 00:31:06,432 A long time ago? Why did you want to leave MOVE? 390 00:31:12,638 --> 00:31:15,841 'Cause we couldn't do what other kids do. 391 00:31:15,841 --> 00:31:17,709 You couldn't do what the other kids did? 392 00:31:20,379 --> 00:31:26,052 Uh, what were the other children allowed to do who were outside of MOVE that you couldn't do? 393 00:31:26,052 --> 00:31:29,989 [ Michael ] Uh, play with toys and stuff and ride bikes and watch TV. 394 00:31:31,757 --> 00:31:34,593 Did you tell anyone that you wanted to leave? 395 00:31:36,162 --> 00:31:37,930 Who'd you tell? 396 00:31:37,930 --> 00:31:41,467 Oh, we told-- We told each other. 397 00:32:02,955 --> 00:32:04,690 [ Man ] This is a blue-collar neighborhood. 398 00:32:06,225 --> 00:32:12,198 And any given summer day you have the children, 399 00:32:12,198 --> 00:32:14,533 uh, playing in the streets. 400 00:32:16,235 --> 00:32:21,173 You have a mother maybe sitting on the steps. 401 00:32:22,874 --> 00:32:24,210 Neighbors talking to each other. 402 00:32:25,978 --> 00:32:30,216 And all of a sudden on their loudspeaker, 403 00:32:30,216 --> 00:32:34,086 you'd hear a voice would come out and say, 404 00:32:34,086 --> 00:32:37,523 "You motherfuckers. What the fuck are you doin' out here now? 405 00:32:38,824 --> 00:32:41,060 Do you know what's going on here? 406 00:32:41,060 --> 00:32:45,964 You son of a bitches around here fuckin' everybody up. 407 00:32:45,964 --> 00:32:47,499 What the fuck is goin' on?" 408 00:32:49,935 --> 00:32:54,006 Anything that was vile, they would go into it. 409 00:33:04,683 --> 00:33:08,020 The filth-- It was-- It was... 410 00:33:08,020 --> 00:33:12,691 unbelievable that something like this could be in someone's mind. 411 00:33:14,026 --> 00:33:16,762 It's one thing to be two blocks away and hear it. 412 00:33:16,762 --> 00:33:22,501 But to live right next door, full blast in our bedroom. 413 00:33:22,501 --> 00:33:25,671 I watched my wife many nights lay there in that bed and cry. 414 00:33:25,671 --> 00:33:27,706 Wasn't nothin' else she could do. 415 00:33:27,706 --> 00:33:30,842 I think that, uh, what we really hoped for... 416 00:33:30,842 --> 00:33:32,978 was that some kind of way... 417 00:33:32,978 --> 00:33:36,415 the city would find a way to deal with the situation. 418 00:33:43,055 --> 00:33:48,860 The only thing that was happening is that MOVE was taking a stand... 419 00:33:48,860 --> 00:33:53,332 against the injustice that has been dropped on them... 420 00:33:53,332 --> 00:33:58,036 by this administration and the Rizzo administration. 421 00:33:58,036 --> 00:34:01,940 MOVE's principle has never changed. 422 00:34:03,375 --> 00:34:07,979 MOVE's mood-- I'm talking about bitterness now-- 423 00:34:07,979 --> 00:34:09,681 did change. 424 00:34:09,681 --> 00:34:13,185 [ Shouting Through Megaphone, Indistinct ] 425 00:34:13,185 --> 00:34:18,324 [ Swans ] They made, in my view, a conscious decision... 426 00:34:18,324 --> 00:34:24,230 to aggravate residents to the point was that the residents would, in fact, 427 00:34:24,230 --> 00:34:29,868 demand for the city to take actions to provide them with relief. 428 00:34:29,868 --> 00:34:33,305 And in that regard, the city would be forced into doing one of two things-- 429 00:34:34,773 --> 00:34:38,310 to engage in confrontation or to engage in compromise. 430 00:34:39,911 --> 00:34:43,048 There was a lot of hostility between those two entities. 431 00:34:43,048 --> 00:34:45,917 I think it must be researched why the hostility was there. 432 00:34:45,917 --> 00:34:48,019 [ Brown ] Which two entities, Mr. Bond? 433 00:34:48,019 --> 00:34:50,356 Uh, the city of Philadelphia and the MOVE organization. 434 00:34:50,356 --> 00:34:53,425 And as a pawn, we were caught in-between. 435 00:34:53,425 --> 00:34:55,927 And nobody, frankly, gave a damn. 436 00:35:06,872 --> 00:35:12,043 I met with 15 residents, uh, of Osage Avenue... 437 00:35:12,043 --> 00:35:15,381 on Memorial Day, 1984. 438 00:35:16,615 --> 00:35:18,950 At that meeting, I said to them... 439 00:35:18,950 --> 00:35:25,424 that I will research as to whether or not there is a legal basis, 440 00:35:25,424 --> 00:35:30,729 uh, for the city to do something about the problem that you have brought to us. 441 00:35:31,897 --> 00:35:34,400 But also pointed out to them... 442 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,469 that the mayor does not have the authority... 443 00:35:37,469 --> 00:35:41,840 because he does not like, or the neighbors do not like, 444 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,576 the way someone live... 445 00:35:44,576 --> 00:35:47,145 to simply go in and evict the people from their house. 446 00:35:47,145 --> 00:35:50,949 We don't have those kinds of options in this democracy. 447 00:35:50,949 --> 00:35:54,019 [ Siren Wailing ] 448 00:35:56,488 --> 00:35:59,991 [ Men ] Today, more than three dozen Philadelphia policemen surrounded the building... 449 00:35:59,991 --> 00:36:04,696 after a MOVE member was spotted on the roof wearing a hooded mask and carrying a shotgun. 450 00:36:04,696 --> 00:36:06,965 That standoff lasted less than two hours. 451 00:36:06,965 --> 00:36:10,168 Police did not enter the house, and no arrests were made. 452 00:36:10,168 --> 00:36:14,039 In the last several weeks, their actions have escalated tensions in the neighborhood... 453 00:36:14,039 --> 00:36:17,443 leading to tonight's situation. 454 00:36:17,443 --> 00:36:20,779 When the individual was on the roof with the mask and the shotgun, 455 00:36:20,779 --> 00:36:24,182 my daughter was in our picture window. 456 00:36:24,182 --> 00:36:28,186 And she said, "Daddy, what is the man doing on top of the roof with a gun?" 457 00:36:31,657 --> 00:36:33,925 And I didn't have an answer. 458 00:36:35,294 --> 00:36:37,062 She asked, "Isn't that against the law?" 459 00:36:38,697 --> 00:36:40,599 And I said yes. 460 00:36:43,302 --> 00:36:48,674 Well, I don't know how you can say that for a certain group of people, the law applies... 461 00:36:48,674 --> 00:36:51,543 and then another group of people, that same law doesn't apply. 462 00:36:51,543 --> 00:36:56,315 I think we were in the law on an equal basis, if I'm correct. 463 00:36:59,718 --> 00:37:04,823 You would see them dragging logs from the park up the street. 464 00:37:04,823 --> 00:37:08,394 You could see that the line in the street... 465 00:37:08,394 --> 00:37:12,498 from, I guess, the oil out of the trees that they would drag up. 466 00:37:12,498 --> 00:37:18,003 Wood would be stacked up in front of the house at 6221. 467 00:37:18,003 --> 00:37:23,675 There was so much of it that we requested that they... 468 00:37:23,675 --> 00:37:25,176 do something with it. 469 00:37:25,176 --> 00:37:27,212 [ Lytton ] What was the response to that request? 470 00:37:27,212 --> 00:37:31,116 They responded and put it on top of the roof. 471 00:37:36,755 --> 00:37:40,191 We used to play on the roof. [ Brown ] You used to play on the roof a lot? 472 00:37:40,191 --> 00:37:43,028 [ Michael ] A lot of times. 473 00:37:43,028 --> 00:37:46,865 - Now, you said something about a bunker. - [ Michael ] Mm-hmm. 474 00:37:46,865 --> 00:37:49,701 How many bunkers were there on the roof? 475 00:37:49,701 --> 00:37:51,403 Two. Two? 476 00:37:51,403 --> 00:37:54,706 And do you know what they were made of? 477 00:37:54,706 --> 00:37:58,276 [ Michael ] 478 00:38:04,049 --> 00:38:06,385 [ Brown ] What kind of holes did they have in the bunkers? 479 00:38:06,385 --> 00:38:11,256 Like the bunker was halfway over the roof like this, and you could look down. 480 00:38:11,256 --> 00:38:14,192 You could see up the street in the-- all over. 481 00:38:15,461 --> 00:38:16,828 Do you know what those holes were for? 482 00:38:36,815 --> 00:38:42,454 That bunker you see there is kind of a toyish-looking thing, 483 00:38:42,454 --> 00:38:48,760 and I will tell you on Osage Avenue, it commanded the scene. 484 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,263 It overlooked and overpowered anything you may-- you can imagine. 485 00:38:52,263 --> 00:38:55,367 It was awesome. 486 00:38:55,367 --> 00:38:58,036 [ Man ] There's been talk that there are explosives in this house. 487 00:38:58,036 --> 00:39:00,472 Uh, is there any truth to that? 488 00:39:00,472 --> 00:39:03,375 That's only people's, you know, hallucination... 489 00:39:03,375 --> 00:39:05,276 because they have not been inside this house. 490 00:39:05,276 --> 00:39:07,379 So they would not know what is in this house. 491 00:39:07,379 --> 00:39:12,851 What is in this house is the strategy of John Africa that is very explosive. 492 00:39:12,851 --> 00:39:15,954 Is it a confrontation? It most certainly is a confrontation, 493 00:39:15,954 --> 00:39:19,591 one strategized by John Africa years and years and years ago. 494 00:39:23,328 --> 00:39:26,665 [ Lytton ] Commissioner, could you tell us what the lessons were... 495 00:39:26,665 --> 00:39:31,670 that you felt were learned in the 1978 confrontation from your point of view? 496 00:39:31,670 --> 00:39:38,176 From my point of view, sir, was that MOVE was a group... 497 00:39:38,176 --> 00:39:43,014 who was bent by virtue of their dogma and by their actions... 498 00:39:43,014 --> 00:39:48,554 of destroying civilized activity... 499 00:39:48,554 --> 00:39:52,157 and ability to live in a neighborhood peacefully. 500 00:39:54,693 --> 00:39:58,430 Tonight, there are growing concerns about the controversial group, MOVE. 501 00:39:58,430 --> 00:40:01,833 City officials met today for the second straight day to discuss strategy. 502 00:40:01,833 --> 00:40:05,504 Sources reveal that Philadelphia's District Attorney has now prepared the warrants... 503 00:40:05,504 --> 00:40:09,040 that are legally necessary to evict MOVE members from their home. 504 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,409 Once those warrants are signed by a judge, 505 00:40:11,409 --> 00:40:15,514 action by police to evict MOVE could come at pretty much any time. 506 00:40:28,460 --> 00:40:32,798 Do you know a police officer by the name of Delores Thompson? 507 00:40:32,798 --> 00:40:35,100 Yes, I do. 508 00:40:35,100 --> 00:40:39,771 Do you recall telling her that your son Frank was ordered to attack you, 509 00:40:39,771 --> 00:40:42,974 that you were beaten until you started to vomit violently, 510 00:40:42,974 --> 00:40:45,711 that Frank then placed a pillow over your face... 511 00:40:45,711 --> 00:40:50,248 and asked John Africa if he wanted you to be cycled or killed... 512 00:40:50,248 --> 00:40:53,719 and that John Africa replied, "Not at this time"? 513 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:55,754 Did she tell you that I said that? 514 00:40:55,754 --> 00:40:59,591 I have her report of that conversation, Mrs. James. Okay. 515 00:40:59,591 --> 00:41:01,927 Well, if she-- Were you satisfied with what she said? 516 00:41:01,927 --> 00:41:04,563 I'm asking you. Okay. 517 00:41:04,563 --> 00:41:07,566 I heard rumors to the effect that my son had beaten me. 518 00:41:07,566 --> 00:41:11,903 I've also heard rumors to the effect that Wilson Goode put his wife's jaw on a pulley, 519 00:41:11,903 --> 00:41:13,839 that he beat the hell out of her. 520 00:41:13,839 --> 00:41:17,509 Will you ask Mayor Goode that when he comes in here if he in fact beat his wife? 521 00:41:17,509 --> 00:41:19,678 And if not, why not? 522 00:41:19,678 --> 00:41:24,282 If it is relevant that my son beat me or whether or not he did beat me, 523 00:41:24,282 --> 00:41:28,319 then I would say it is just as relevant for you to ask Wilson Goode when he comes in here, 524 00:41:28,319 --> 00:41:29,821 "Did he beat his wife?" 525 00:41:29,821 --> 00:41:31,990 I don't think you're gonna ask him that. 526 00:41:31,990 --> 00:41:37,028 I really don't. But you should, if you feel that it is relevant. 527 00:41:41,633 --> 00:41:46,838 Mr. Lytton, I just want to make it clear in my mind so that I understand. 528 00:41:46,838 --> 00:41:51,209 Am I to assume that the bomb was dropped on MOVE people... 529 00:41:51,209 --> 00:41:54,145 because Frank beat his mother? 530 00:41:54,145 --> 00:41:55,814 Ma'am, we're trying to find out what happened, 531 00:41:55,814 --> 00:41:58,283 - and we'll continue asking questions. - [ Sims ] Oh. Okay. 532 00:42:19,905 --> 00:42:22,173 Of course, on Mother's Day, the evacuation has been slow. 533 00:42:22,173 --> 00:42:23,842 People had plans for today. 534 00:42:23,842 --> 00:42:27,378 A few had decided that they'd stay and not evacuate. 535 00:42:27,378 --> 00:42:31,817 But police have now apparently advised those people that they think it's best that they leave. 536 00:42:31,817 --> 00:42:36,187 I hope that it's resolved quickly... 537 00:42:36,187 --> 00:42:39,024 and have all confidence that the mayor's going to be doing the right thing. 538 00:42:39,024 --> 00:42:42,193 I wouldn't mind staying myself, you see. 539 00:42:42,193 --> 00:42:44,062 But I was told to leave... 540 00:42:44,062 --> 00:42:46,832 just 'cause he don't know what the extent of this is going to be, you know. 541 00:42:46,832 --> 00:42:48,566 [ Man ] What do you think? 542 00:42:48,566 --> 00:42:53,571 I think-- Believe it or not, I think you'll have to kill all of them. 543 00:42:53,571 --> 00:42:55,941 [ Woman ] And neighbors have been told by police... 544 00:42:55,941 --> 00:42:58,877 not to return to their homes for 24 hours. 545 00:42:58,877 --> 00:43:01,212 That's 10:00 tomorrow night. 546 00:43:01,212 --> 00:43:05,050 Now, what will happen between now and then remains to be seen, Charles. 547 00:43:05,050 --> 00:43:07,919 And, Casey, some of the neighbors, as they were leaving, said to me... 548 00:43:07,919 --> 00:43:10,021 that as they were going, leaving the neighborhood, 549 00:43:10,021 --> 00:43:12,123 the MOVE people were sitting out in front of the MOVE house, 550 00:43:12,123 --> 00:43:14,192 the children in hand. 551 00:43:14,192 --> 00:43:19,898 Perhaps that was a subtle or not-so-subtle indication of what's happening here. 552 00:43:19,898 --> 00:43:23,268 [ Lytton ] Did you consider, sir, that at least in 1978, 553 00:43:23,268 --> 00:43:27,238 the members of the MOVE organization who were at the Powelton Village house... 554 00:43:27,238 --> 00:43:32,711 had used their children, uh, as if they were hostages? 555 00:43:32,711 --> 00:43:34,746 No, sir, I did not. 556 00:43:34,746 --> 00:43:37,916 [ Lytton ] You've said they came out holding their children up as shields. 557 00:43:37,916 --> 00:43:40,118 Uh, I'm not an expert in police science, 558 00:43:40,118 --> 00:43:42,788 but I think to the layman, 559 00:43:42,788 --> 00:43:45,657 that might suggest that they were using their children as a hostage. 560 00:43:45,657 --> 00:43:48,894 That's why I'm asking you why you did not consider that. 561 00:43:48,894 --> 00:43:52,397 They were using them simply as a ploy... 562 00:43:53,331 --> 00:43:56,835 and using that philosophy-- 563 00:43:56,835 --> 00:44:00,605 that feeling that we had for the sanctity of children... 564 00:44:00,605 --> 00:44:04,209 and everyone else-- to our disadvantage. 565 00:44:07,012 --> 00:44:10,682 I do not want to wake up tomorrow morning and find myself short one son... 566 00:44:10,682 --> 00:44:15,586 because if this thing kicks off, you're going to have bodies strewn every which way. 567 00:44:15,586 --> 00:44:19,257 You're going to have children killed, and you're going to have adults killed. 568 00:44:19,257 --> 00:44:24,696 I am very much afraid you're going to have blood-soaked streets. 569 00:44:24,696 --> 00:44:28,499 Every one of us knew that there was an extraordinarily high likelihood... 570 00:44:28,499 --> 00:44:30,168 that someone was going to die. 571 00:44:30,168 --> 00:44:32,637 We didn't know whether it was going to be a policeman. 572 00:44:32,637 --> 00:44:34,505 We didn't know whether it was going to be a fireman. 573 00:44:34,505 --> 00:44:36,942 We didn't know whether it was going to be a MOVE member. 574 00:44:36,942 --> 00:44:42,714 The worse dread of all was that it was going to be a child or a neighbor or a bystander. 575 00:44:42,714 --> 00:44:46,351 I don't know if anyone on this panel has ever had the responsibility... 576 00:44:46,351 --> 00:44:51,389 of saying "go" to a plan that you know is going to cost human lives. 577 00:44:51,389 --> 00:44:54,625 Until you've done that, it's very difficult to gauge... 578 00:44:54,625 --> 00:44:58,997 whether the city officials were right or wrong in what they did. 579 00:44:58,997 --> 00:45:03,802 Did you all have meetings where you would discuss what to do if the police came? 580 00:45:04,535 --> 00:45:07,638 Mm-mmm. Not us. 581 00:45:07,638 --> 00:45:10,475 Not the children? How about the adults? 582 00:45:10,475 --> 00:45:12,744 How about the grown-ups? 583 00:45:12,744 --> 00:45:15,981 They used to be upstairs by theirself when they had their meetings. 584 00:45:15,981 --> 00:45:18,049 When they had their meetings? 585 00:45:18,049 --> 00:45:20,385 How often would they have their meetings? 586 00:45:20,385 --> 00:45:22,821 A lot of times. A lot of times? 587 00:45:22,821 --> 00:45:27,759 Did you ever sit in on-- Were you ever in any of their meetings? 588 00:45:27,759 --> 00:45:30,328 Do you ever know what went on in those meetings? 589 00:45:30,328 --> 00:45:31,797 Mm-mmm. 590 00:45:32,998 --> 00:45:35,166 What is a confrontation? Do you know? 591 00:45:36,101 --> 00:45:37,668 Like it was. 592 00:45:37,668 --> 00:45:40,205 But what happens when you have a confrontation? 593 00:45:40,205 --> 00:45:42,407 When the cops come and stuff. 594 00:46:10,535 --> 00:46:15,140 What did you believe they might have had by way of firearms in that house? 595 00:46:15,140 --> 00:46:18,009 We were led to believe that they had automatic firearms. 596 00:46:20,111 --> 00:46:22,047 Shotguns. 597 00:46:22,047 --> 00:46:24,115 I guess just as well as equipped as we were. 598 00:46:24,115 --> 00:46:26,417 Mm-hmm. 599 00:46:26,417 --> 00:46:32,757 And so based on what you believed they had, then you went prepared to match? 600 00:46:32,757 --> 00:46:36,227 - To match or better than. - Or to have superior? 601 00:46:36,227 --> 00:46:37,863 That's correct, sir. 602 00:46:40,498 --> 00:46:43,434 [ Man ] We interrupt regular programming for this special report. 603 00:46:43,434 --> 00:46:46,838 I'm Dennis Woltering with Harvey Clarke at 62nd and Vine... 604 00:46:46,838 --> 00:46:49,007 where authorities continue preparations... 605 00:46:49,007 --> 00:46:52,978 for an apparent confrontation with the radical group, MOVE. 606 00:46:52,978 --> 00:46:55,346 Let me tell you what's happened so far this morning. 607 00:46:55,346 --> 00:46:58,316 About two hours ago, about 3:30 a.m., 608 00:46:58,316 --> 00:47:01,752 utility crews moved into the area, shut off gas and electricity. 609 00:47:01,752 --> 00:47:05,090 SWAT teams have been converging on the area. 610 00:47:05,090 --> 00:47:09,360 You can see a fire truck behind me with a deluge gun pointed back that way. 611 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,529 It's aimed, apparently, at the MOVE house. 612 00:47:11,529 --> 00:47:13,664 It looks like the scene is set. 613 00:47:28,479 --> 00:47:30,949 [ Sambor ] I got on my stomach, 614 00:47:30,949 --> 00:47:34,685 and with the bullhorn, I read the message. 615 00:47:34,685 --> 00:47:38,656 And to be quite frank, I was sweating it out. 616 00:47:38,656 --> 00:47:40,791 [ Brown ] What did Commissioner Sambor say, do you know? 617 00:47:40,791 --> 00:47:42,860 He was telling them to come out. 618 00:47:42,860 --> 00:47:44,896 Did you hear him saying that? 619 00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,843 [ Man ] What was the response of the MOVE organization... 620 00:47:58,843 --> 00:48:01,679 when you read the arrest warrant that they vacate the premises? 621 00:48:01,679 --> 00:48:04,382 That they would not surrender. 622 00:48:04,382 --> 00:48:07,552 - Can you tell us what else they said? - That they would kill us all. 623 00:48:07,552 --> 00:48:09,154 And what else did they say? 624 00:48:09,154 --> 00:48:12,857 Uh, they said that, uh-- 625 00:48:12,857 --> 00:48:15,426 that all of our wives would be widows. 626 00:48:15,426 --> 00:48:19,764 And what else did they say about your wives? 627 00:48:19,764 --> 00:48:25,870 They said that our wives would be sleeping with other men before the end of the day. 628 00:48:25,870 --> 00:48:28,439 Did they describe what other kind of men? Yes, sir. 629 00:48:28,439 --> 00:48:30,541 Would you tell us? 630 00:48:30,541 --> 00:48:34,946 They said that our wives would be sleeping with black men before the end of the day. 631 00:48:34,946 --> 00:48:38,216 Do you recall what your reaction was to those statements? 632 00:48:38,216 --> 00:48:43,721 I accepted it, sir, as some of their rhetoric... 633 00:48:43,721 --> 00:48:48,826 and attempts to incite the police and myself to precipitous action. 634 00:49:04,609 --> 00:49:07,245 The police went in about five minutes to 6:00. 635 00:49:07,245 --> 00:49:09,147 Just four minutes ago, they pumped tear gas in... 636 00:49:09,147 --> 00:49:11,249 which is in the area. 637 00:49:11,249 --> 00:49:15,886 The police began a deluge, which you can see here. 638 00:49:15,886 --> 00:49:17,755 That water's actually being pumped in... 639 00:49:17,755 --> 00:49:22,060 about, probably, 50 yards into the MOVE compound. 640 00:49:23,728 --> 00:49:26,764 As you can see up the street, Tom, if you just pan up there, 641 00:49:26,764 --> 00:49:31,236 it's a very surreal kind of scene. 642 00:49:31,236 --> 00:49:33,804 Very calm men standing around... 643 00:49:33,804 --> 00:49:38,343 as the cloud of tear gas, the haze, kind of begins to lift. 644 00:49:38,343 --> 00:49:41,079 Here comes some more tear gas down Addison Street. 645 00:49:41,079 --> 00:49:44,049 This apparently has expanded... 646 00:49:45,350 --> 00:49:48,819 to include the entire square block. 647 00:49:48,819 --> 00:49:52,323 Perhaps when the cloud clears, we'll know a little bit more. 648 00:49:55,426 --> 00:50:00,431 What was the plan for May 13, 1985? 649 00:50:00,431 --> 00:50:04,602 The tactical plan, as I understood it, 650 00:50:04,602 --> 00:50:09,507 was to remove the MOVE people-- all the people-- 651 00:50:09,507 --> 00:50:11,276 from the house safely. 652 00:50:11,276 --> 00:50:13,511 That was the objective. 653 00:50:13,511 --> 00:50:19,884 It was to be done by causing a diversion on the roof, 654 00:50:19,884 --> 00:50:23,288 inserting the insertion teams on either side of the properties... 655 00:50:24,789 --> 00:50:30,195 and by then inducing an amount of C.S. gas... 656 00:50:30,195 --> 00:50:31,762 in a sufficient concentration... 657 00:50:33,664 --> 00:50:37,535 to make those people come out of the house. 658 00:50:37,535 --> 00:50:43,174 The police presence here is not like it was the last time. 659 00:50:43,174 --> 00:50:46,144 This is being handled almost entirely by the stakeout unit. 660 00:50:46,144 --> 00:50:48,413 - [ Gunshot ] - There may have just been a gunshot. 661 00:50:48,413 --> 00:50:50,815 The gunshots are starting right now. 662 00:50:50,815 --> 00:50:54,185 - [ Gunfire ] - It sounds like automatic fire. There's quite a bit of it. 663 00:50:54,185 --> 00:50:56,921 We can't tell, Steve, at this point exactly where the gunfire is coming from. 664 00:50:56,921 --> 00:50:58,756 [ Men Chattering ] 665 00:50:58,756 --> 00:51:03,194 Okay. Steve, at this point we're being forced to leave our position. 666 00:51:03,194 --> 00:51:05,330 We'll get back to you as soon as we can. Let's go. 667 00:51:05,330 --> 00:51:07,365 The police are now moving Harvey Clarke. 668 00:51:07,365 --> 00:51:09,734 - [ Lytton ] Who shot first? - They did. 669 00:51:09,734 --> 00:51:12,937 How do you know? Because I was there. 670 00:51:12,937 --> 00:51:15,673 I understand that. Did you see muzzle fire? 671 00:51:15,673 --> 00:51:18,909 I'm just trying to determine how you have that knowledge. No, sir, I did not. 672 00:51:18,909 --> 00:51:24,582 But one of the other teams reported that they were receiving hostile fire. 673 00:51:24,582 --> 00:51:27,852 - Did it sound like automatic fire to you? - It did. Yes, sir. 674 00:51:27,852 --> 00:51:31,021 And I take it you're familiar with the sound of automatic weapons fire. 675 00:51:31,021 --> 00:51:32,657 I've heard automatic-- Yes, sir. 676 00:51:35,193 --> 00:51:38,296 Pat, as you can see, we have reestablished our live signal. 677 00:51:38,296 --> 00:51:41,966 Tremendous bursts of gunfire have rang out... 678 00:51:41,966 --> 00:51:44,769 in the area of the 6200 block of Osage Avenue. 679 00:51:44,769 --> 00:51:47,705 Walt Hunter has joined me. And, Walter, what have you learned? 680 00:51:47,705 --> 00:51:49,807 We have heard several popping sounds here... 681 00:51:49,807 --> 00:51:52,543 indicating that gunfire is getting much, much closer. 682 00:51:52,543 --> 00:51:56,281 But we don't know if the guns you're hearing are police guns, MOVE guns or other guns. 683 00:51:56,281 --> 00:51:58,749 About the only thing we can confirm for you at this point... 684 00:51:58,749 --> 00:52:02,153 is that clearly, based on the nature of the shoot-out we're seeing here this morning, 685 00:52:02,153 --> 00:52:05,390 MOVE did have some weaponry either in the house or nearby. 686 00:52:16,567 --> 00:52:18,269 [ Lytton ] As you know, Commissioner, 687 00:52:18,269 --> 00:52:21,772 there were no automatic weapons found in the MOVE house. 688 00:52:21,772 --> 00:52:24,642 Do you know whether or not the automatic weapons fire you heard... 689 00:52:24,642 --> 00:52:26,711 was in fact from police officers? 690 00:52:28,679 --> 00:52:34,419 The firing, as initiated by MOVE, 691 00:52:34,419 --> 00:52:36,554 uh, was... 692 00:52:38,623 --> 00:52:43,027 apparently automatic fire, 693 00:52:43,027 --> 00:52:45,496 and I cannot explain it. 694 00:52:45,496 --> 00:52:50,635 But I do not believe for one minute... 695 00:52:50,635 --> 00:52:54,405 that it was the police that were firing at that time. 696 00:52:55,940 --> 00:52:59,143 Once the MOVE members started firing, 697 00:52:59,143 --> 00:53:01,712 their status changed radically in the eyes of the law. 698 00:53:01,712 --> 00:53:04,215 They at that point became forcible felons, 699 00:53:04,215 --> 00:53:06,717 and there's a whole different set of laws... 700 00:53:06,717 --> 00:53:09,720 as to the apprehension and the amount of force that can be used... 701 00:53:09,720 --> 00:53:14,191 in the apprehension of and the prevention of the escape of forcible felons. 702 00:53:14,191 --> 00:53:16,961 - Including the children? - No. 703 00:53:16,961 --> 00:53:18,596 That's as to the adults. 704 00:53:19,730 --> 00:53:21,699 We went downstairs. 705 00:53:21,699 --> 00:53:25,169 [ Brown ] Did the adults tell you to go downstairs? 706 00:53:25,169 --> 00:53:27,472 And where did you go when you went downstairs? 707 00:53:27,472 --> 00:53:29,474 The garage. Into the garage? 708 00:53:29,474 --> 00:53:32,743 - But where were the men? - They were upstairs. 709 00:53:32,743 --> 00:53:34,612 Do you know what they were doing? 710 00:53:44,989 --> 00:53:48,926 [ Woman ] Now, we know that the children wasn't doing any shooting. 711 00:53:48,926 --> 00:53:52,162 Do you feel that their rights-- I did not know that the children were not shooting. 712 00:53:52,162 --> 00:53:55,833 What-- Would you say that if we had children in there four, five, six years old... 713 00:53:55,833 --> 00:53:58,035 that they would have been using any type of weapons? 714 00:53:58,035 --> 00:54:01,171 To my knowledge, there was only one that young. 715 00:54:04,875 --> 00:54:08,045 We would like to tell you that the shoot-out is over. We cannot say that definitively. 716 00:54:08,045 --> 00:54:10,915 We can say there's been at least a 15- or 20-minute break in the gunfights. 717 00:54:10,915 --> 00:54:14,385 Here comes a police car racing in right now at this moment. 718 00:54:14,385 --> 00:54:17,722 This is a highway patrol car racing into the scene. 719 00:54:17,722 --> 00:54:19,724 We don't know what this signifies. 720 00:54:19,724 --> 00:54:23,093 We'd like to tell you it's over. We really can't right now. There has been a pause. 721 00:54:23,093 --> 00:54:26,096 There are indications that what has been a tremendous gunfight is over. 722 00:54:26,096 --> 00:54:28,198 Looking in the trunk of this car right here-- 723 00:54:28,198 --> 00:54:31,135 [ Gunfire ] There's more gunfire right now. We're gonna crouch down. 724 00:54:31,135 --> 00:54:34,305 As you were about to say, the police are unloading, as you can see right now. 725 00:54:34,305 --> 00:54:37,308 The police are unloading Winchester cartridge shells... 726 00:54:37,308 --> 00:54:39,844 from the back of a highway patrol car. 727 00:54:41,612 --> 00:54:44,582 Do you know how many rounds were fired that day? 728 00:54:44,582 --> 00:54:46,551 [ Sambor ] No, sir. 729 00:54:46,551 --> 00:54:50,988 But I will say that, uh-- uh, we ran out. 730 00:54:53,891 --> 00:54:57,462 Uh, we did not anticipate, 731 00:54:57,462 --> 00:55:03,901 uh, the extent of the confrontation, 732 00:55:03,901 --> 00:55:06,070 uh, and ran out. 733 00:55:06,070 --> 00:55:10,207 Uh, I don't know what time it was, but it was some time in the morning. 734 00:55:14,779 --> 00:55:17,247 What's happening is, it's a shoot-out. 735 00:55:17,247 --> 00:55:21,386 - Oh, man, and those kids and all that-- - [ Gunshots ] 736 00:55:30,194 --> 00:55:34,131 The gunfire is as close as it's been since the shoot-out happened this morning. 737 00:55:34,131 --> 00:55:36,033 Let's-- Let's come closer. 738 00:55:36,033 --> 00:55:40,204 Let's come closer and use-- and crouch down behind the Eyewitness News truck. 739 00:55:44,975 --> 00:55:47,578 [ Woman ] Oh, my God! 740 00:55:59,023 --> 00:56:01,559 [ Man ] Get down, lady. Get down. Yeah. 741 00:56:01,559 --> 00:56:05,162 [ Gunfire Continues ] 742 00:56:05,162 --> 00:56:07,965 [ Man ] Stay in the house. Stay inside. 743 00:56:09,534 --> 00:56:12,036 I heard shots being fired, and cops was in the alleyway. 744 00:56:12,036 --> 00:56:13,804 They was like, "Get in the house. Don't come out." 745 00:56:13,804 --> 00:56:15,640 I was very, very frightened. 746 00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:17,675 You supposed to nip something in the bud. 747 00:56:17,675 --> 00:56:20,177 If you see something's coming, you're supposed to sit down and try to iron it out... 748 00:56:20,177 --> 00:56:22,547 before something like this comes to this stage. 749 00:56:22,547 --> 00:56:25,215 It's war. This is war. 750 00:56:25,215 --> 00:56:27,051 I've never seen it, but I've lived through it today. 751 00:56:41,365 --> 00:56:43,167 [ Harvey ] This woman-- We can't determine... 752 00:56:43,167 --> 00:56:47,572 whether she is a relative of one of the MOVE members or not. 753 00:56:47,572 --> 00:56:50,441 It appeared that things had gotten calm. 754 00:56:50,441 --> 00:56:54,912 And then as you heard, about a minute and a half ago, another burst of gunfire. 755 00:56:54,912 --> 00:56:57,448 [ Walt ] This woman is now being taken into police custody. 756 00:56:57,448 --> 00:57:00,050 You're watching it live. They are restraining her. 757 00:57:00,050 --> 00:57:04,555 She is hysterical and is clearly upset about what's going on in there. 758 00:57:04,555 --> 00:57:07,525 Just trying to get her out of the danger area where we are on the fringes right now. 759 00:57:09,026 --> 00:57:11,061 [ Lytton ] Did you have a concern... 760 00:57:11,061 --> 00:57:14,031 that the people inside of that house... 761 00:57:14,031 --> 00:57:17,134 might be in physical danger or that their lives might be in danger? 762 00:57:17,134 --> 00:57:19,770 Concern? We knew it. 763 00:57:19,770 --> 00:57:21,405 Miss-- We-- Excuse me. 764 00:57:21,405 --> 00:57:25,976 We had-- You had 200 boot-kicking, 765 00:57:25,976 --> 00:57:30,380 Gestapo-oriented cops out there that day. 766 00:57:30,380 --> 00:57:35,986 You had, that day, a police officer by the name of Mulvihill... 767 00:57:35,986 --> 00:57:42,760 who was in the 1978, uh, tragedy... 768 00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:48,633 who was, in fact, one of the officers who stomped and kicked... 769 00:57:48,633 --> 00:57:51,569 and beat and bludgeoned... 770 00:57:51,569 --> 00:57:55,940 and shot and helmeted and kicked some more... 771 00:57:55,940 --> 00:57:58,643 my brother, Delbert Africa. 772 00:57:58,643 --> 00:58:01,478 So as I understand your testimony, 773 00:58:01,478 --> 00:58:03,413 you were concerned that there may be physical harm... 774 00:58:03,413 --> 00:58:05,683 to the people inside that house, is that correct? 775 00:58:05,683 --> 00:58:07,451 Would you turn up your hearing aid, please? 776 00:58:07,451 --> 00:58:09,286 I can hear you fine, Mrs. James. 777 00:58:09,286 --> 00:58:10,988 My question is-- Well, then if you can hear me fine, 778 00:58:10,988 --> 00:58:13,624 if you don't have a hearing aid, I suggest you get one. 779 00:58:13,624 --> 00:58:15,125 Well, because-- Excuse me! 780 00:58:15,125 --> 00:58:16,293 Yes, ma'am. 781 00:58:16,293 --> 00:58:18,663 To ask me... 782 00:58:18,663 --> 00:58:24,034 "were we concerned" is complete insanity. 783 00:58:34,378 --> 00:58:39,650 [ Sambor ] By virtue of the fact that MOVE had construction on the roof... 784 00:58:39,650 --> 00:58:42,653 that was commonly referred to as the bunker, 785 00:58:42,653 --> 00:58:48,626 that gave them complete command of the Osage Avenue, 786 00:58:48,626 --> 00:58:51,461 access over the roofs-- 787 00:58:52,730 --> 00:58:55,933 they were in an enviable tactical position. 788 00:58:57,668 --> 00:59:00,137 [ Man ] The water cannon used during the MOVE standoff today... 789 00:59:00,137 --> 00:59:03,841 shoots an estimated 1,000 gallons of water a minute. 790 00:59:03,841 --> 00:59:06,811 Sources say the purpose of the water is threefold-- 791 00:59:06,811 --> 00:59:09,880 First, to disorient the people inside the house. 792 00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:14,752 Secondly, the water increases humidity, which makes tear gas more effective. 793 00:59:14,752 --> 00:59:19,123 Thirdly, the powerful water pressure could cause the house to collapse. 794 00:59:21,491 --> 00:59:27,031 If that plan relied solely on the ability of our equipment to knock the bunker off, 795 00:59:27,031 --> 00:59:30,901 they knew very clearly up front that we could not guarantee that, sir. 796 00:59:43,748 --> 00:59:47,517 Chris, I saw Police Commissioner Gregore Sambor about 45 minutes ago, 797 00:59:47,517 --> 00:59:50,587 and he described his men as, quote, "taking a break now." 798 00:59:50,587 --> 00:59:52,456 They're obviously somewhat startled... 799 00:59:52,456 --> 00:59:56,426 by the way that MOVE's building at 62 and Osage was fortified... 800 00:59:56,426 --> 01:00:00,698 and able to take the water barrage and the bullets that flew in there this morning. 801 01:00:00,698 --> 01:00:02,633 Thousands of rounds spun off. 802 01:00:02,633 --> 01:00:05,535 [ Harvey ] Larry, for the first time, it's been quiet for several hours here. 803 01:00:05,535 --> 01:00:07,204 The police helicopter did go back up, 804 01:00:07,204 --> 01:00:10,040 and I guess they wanted to take a look at the top of the bunker. 805 01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:14,812 We had reports-- What you see in front there, the yellow tarp is the front of that building, 806 01:00:14,812 --> 01:00:17,214 and we were told that that bunker was destroyed. 807 01:00:17,214 --> 01:00:18,916 But it appears that it's still there. 808 01:00:18,916 --> 01:00:21,786 Okay, Harvey. They stopped the snorkel gun now. 809 01:00:21,786 --> 01:00:26,123 There's no water on that roof. For some time, the water has been turned off. 810 01:00:26,123 --> 01:00:28,225 [ Man ] At City Hall this afternoon, 811 01:00:28,225 --> 01:00:30,594 Mayor Goode appeared publicly for the first time since the siege began. 812 01:00:30,594 --> 01:00:34,398 Goode said he's committed to removing MOVE from the structure. 813 01:00:34,398 --> 01:00:36,901 We intend to evict from the house. 814 01:00:36,901 --> 01:00:40,671 We intend to evacuate from the house, and we intend to seize control of the house. 815 01:00:40,671 --> 01:00:45,142 [ Woman ] How will you do that? We will do it by any means necessary. 816 01:00:54,118 --> 01:00:56,253 [ Woman ] Something is starting to happen. 817 01:00:56,253 --> 01:00:59,623 There is a big-- The fire engine has fired up again. 818 01:00:59,623 --> 01:01:02,326 Its engine is on for the first time all afternoon. 819 01:01:02,326 --> 01:01:05,863 We just saw some police officers behind us have their hands over their ears. 820 01:01:05,863 --> 01:01:08,632 We don't know why. We can't hear anything at this point. 821 01:01:08,632 --> 01:01:11,335 I must say that this tiny little flurry of activity... 822 01:01:11,335 --> 01:01:14,104 is really the first bit of activity that there's been here all afternoon. 823 01:01:14,104 --> 01:01:16,006 It's been very quiet. 824 01:01:16,006 --> 01:01:19,109 Police say that they have a plan. They say it will be implemented shortly. 825 01:01:19,109 --> 01:01:21,145 We will tell you what it is when it happens. 826 01:01:21,145 --> 01:01:25,382 Reporting live from 62nd and Delancey, this is Chris Wagner, Channel 6 Action News. 827 01:01:42,332 --> 01:01:45,736 [ Woman ] This device that was used-- You're calling it a device. 828 01:01:45,736 --> 01:01:48,806 I'm calling it a bomb. But did it ever occur to you... 829 01:01:48,806 --> 01:01:54,144 that this might have been a dangerous device to use in a residential neighborhood? 830 01:01:54,144 --> 01:01:55,980 Yes, ma'am. 831 01:01:55,980 --> 01:01:58,983 It did occur to you? Yes, ma'am. 832 01:02:01,819 --> 01:02:03,487 [ Lytton ] By not vetoing it, 833 01:02:03,487 --> 01:02:06,857 did you approve the plan to use an explosive on the roof? 834 01:02:06,857 --> 01:02:11,428 I think that I was fully aware that it would, in fact, be used, 835 01:02:11,428 --> 01:02:15,432 and it is my view that you can regard that... 836 01:02:15,432 --> 01:02:18,502 as an approval of using the explosive on the roof, yes. 837 01:02:34,051 --> 01:02:38,555 ...right there in a 10-15 foot hover above the roof. 838 01:02:38,555 --> 01:02:42,793 And I was right on the left-hand side of the helicopter right here. 839 01:02:42,793 --> 01:02:45,863 Onto this corner is where I finally came to a stop. 840 01:03:19,729 --> 01:03:22,266 [ Brown ] You were down in the garage, is that right? 841 01:03:22,266 --> 01:03:27,337 We was down there for a while, and then everybody came down. 842 01:03:27,337 --> 01:03:31,375 - All the men came down? - That's when the big bomb went off. 843 01:03:42,686 --> 01:03:44,889 It shook the whole house up. 844 01:03:45,622 --> 01:03:49,626 [ Explosion ] 845 01:03:49,626 --> 01:03:51,862 [ Chris ] Police say there has just been a huge explosion here. 846 01:03:51,862 --> 01:03:54,865 We don't know what it means, but it just shook the whole place. 847 01:03:54,865 --> 01:03:58,368 Debris flew all over the place. I don't know what that explosion was. 848 01:03:58,368 --> 01:04:01,138 All I can tell you is that it was a huge blast. 849 01:04:01,138 --> 01:04:02,973 [ Harvey ] Get a shot with me. Get a sh-- 850 01:04:02,973 --> 01:04:05,842 Harvey, can you hear us? At this point, I really can't tell you very much. 851 01:04:05,842 --> 01:04:09,446 There was about a 15-second delay, then an explosion. 852 01:04:09,446 --> 01:04:11,982 [ Walt ] Perhaps the most frightening thing here is that police do say... 853 01:04:11,982 --> 01:04:14,684 that six to eight children are believed to be inside the MOVE house. 854 01:04:14,684 --> 01:04:17,454 As soon as we find out what the explosion is, we will try to tell you. 855 01:04:17,454 --> 01:04:19,223 At this point, I simply do not know. 856 01:04:21,892 --> 01:04:26,163 [ Lytton ] After the explosion, you saw that the bunker was still there. Yes, sir. 857 01:04:26,163 --> 01:04:30,134 - Did you observe any smoke or fire on the roof? - I did not. 858 01:04:30,134 --> 01:04:33,537 And-- I did hear over the radio that there was none. 859 01:04:58,262 --> 01:05:03,267 It's easy to equate explosions and explosive materials with fire. 860 01:05:03,267 --> 01:05:04,935 But that's not necessarily so. 861 01:05:04,935 --> 01:05:06,670 'Cause I think we've all seen buildings demolished, 862 01:05:06,670 --> 01:05:08,438 and it's used all the time in mining. 863 01:05:08,438 --> 01:05:11,841 So I don't think you can just logically conclude... 864 01:05:11,841 --> 01:05:15,612 if you're going to have an explosion, you're going to have a fire. 865 01:05:15,612 --> 01:05:18,848 There's no more smoke. And at this point, looking over my shoulder, 866 01:05:18,848 --> 01:05:22,686 the water barrage appears to have ended again. 867 01:05:41,972 --> 01:05:45,542 Okay, there is a new development at the MOVE building, 62nd and Osage. 868 01:05:45,542 --> 01:05:47,978 We'll go live right away to Harvey Clarke at the scene. 869 01:05:47,978 --> 01:05:50,714 What's going on, Harvey? Larry, behind me you can probably see right now-- 870 01:05:50,714 --> 01:05:52,582 We'll push and try to get a little tighter shot of it-- 871 01:05:52,582 --> 01:05:56,620 that the satchel charge, or whatever-- the explosive or bomb... 872 01:05:56,620 --> 01:05:59,089 that was dropped on the MOVE compound just a few minutes ago... 873 01:05:59,089 --> 01:06:01,425 has apparently started a serious fire. 874 01:06:01,425 --> 01:06:05,562 But the two deluge guns or sprinklers... 875 01:06:05,562 --> 01:06:09,366 that they've been pumping water in from Pine Street are not active now. 876 01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:14,504 I wanted to get the bunker. 877 01:06:14,504 --> 01:06:20,444 I wanted to be able to somehow have tactical superiority... 878 01:06:20,444 --> 01:06:25,249 without sacrificing any lives, if it were at all possible. 879 01:06:27,584 --> 01:06:30,020 Commissioner Sambor said to me-- 880 01:06:31,188 --> 01:06:33,857 He said let's let the bunker burn... 881 01:06:33,857 --> 01:06:37,594 to eliminate that high ground advantage and the tactical advantage of the bunker. 882 01:06:37,594 --> 01:06:39,163 And I said, "Yeah, okay." 883 01:06:39,163 --> 01:06:41,531 [ Sambor ] It was not an order. 884 01:06:41,531 --> 01:06:44,034 In essence, in communication-- 885 01:06:44,034 --> 01:06:48,272 I communicated to him that I would like to let the fire burn. 886 01:07:02,686 --> 01:07:04,488 Larry, this is becoming a very emotional scene. 887 01:07:04,488 --> 01:07:06,156 With me is Janice Walker. 888 01:07:06,156 --> 01:07:08,858 She lives at 6217 Osage, 889 01:07:08,858 --> 01:07:11,728 just two doors from the MOVE house. Yes. 890 01:07:11,728 --> 01:07:13,897 And you're afraid that your house may be on fire. 891 01:07:13,897 --> 01:07:17,033 I'm sure it's just destroyed, and it's just not fair. 892 01:07:17,033 --> 01:07:20,570 We've been there over 20 years, and we didn't have to have to go through this. 893 01:07:20,570 --> 01:07:24,007 [ Man ] We only left with a few odds and ends, you know, for the night. 894 01:07:24,007 --> 01:07:27,010 We had no idea it was gonna be this devastating. 895 01:07:27,010 --> 01:07:29,846 You've got innocent people that live around there on Osage Avenue, 896 01:07:29,846 --> 01:07:31,815 and they just, you know-- 897 01:07:31,815 --> 01:07:34,451 Their properties have just gone up in smoke. 898 01:07:45,429 --> 01:07:49,933 I saw initially a small fire on the roof. 899 01:07:49,933 --> 01:07:53,002 I saw what appeared... 900 01:07:53,002 --> 01:07:57,341 to be some water coming in. 901 01:07:57,341 --> 01:08:00,009 I determined later that that was not water at all... 902 01:08:00,009 --> 01:08:05,715 but was basically the kind of snow on my television screen. 903 01:08:05,715 --> 01:08:08,385 And after about five minutes of watching that, 904 01:08:08,385 --> 01:08:12,289 I gave what was my first order of the day, 905 01:08:12,289 --> 01:08:15,058 which was "put the fire out." 906 01:08:15,058 --> 01:08:20,230 You are aware that the mayor has testified... 907 01:08:20,230 --> 01:08:25,535 that at approximately 6:00 on the evening of May 13, 908 01:08:25,535 --> 01:08:29,038 he ordered that the fire be put out. 909 01:08:29,038 --> 01:08:31,708 I heard the testimony, yes, sir. 910 01:08:34,478 --> 01:08:37,714 Do you know whether or not... 911 01:08:37,714 --> 01:08:41,818 there had been any order to put the fire out? 912 01:08:44,454 --> 01:08:46,790 Yes, sir. 913 01:08:46,790 --> 01:08:50,560 Did you convey that order to anyone else? Yes, sir. 914 01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:54,331 - To whom? - The fire commissioner was still there. 915 01:08:55,432 --> 01:08:57,401 Question: To whom? 916 01:08:57,401 --> 01:09:00,837 Answer: The fire commissioner was still there. 917 01:09:00,837 --> 01:09:05,175 Those responses were Commissioner Sambor, sir? Yes, sir. 918 01:09:05,175 --> 01:09:06,910 I categorically deny that. 919 01:09:06,910 --> 01:09:09,679 I had no knowledge of an order to extinguish that fire. 920 01:09:56,326 --> 01:10:00,129 [ Brown ] Was there any smoke or tear gas in the garage when you were down there? 921 01:10:00,129 --> 01:10:02,532 Or was there tear gas? It was smoke and tear gas. 922 01:10:02,532 --> 01:10:04,334 Smoke and tear gas? 923 01:10:04,334 --> 01:10:08,037 Did it bother you? Did it burn your eyes or anything? Mm-hmm. 924 01:10:08,037 --> 01:10:09,906 And what did you all do? 925 01:10:09,906 --> 01:10:12,676 We was under the blanket with our heads. 926 01:10:12,676 --> 01:10:14,878 Were all the kids under blankets? Mm-hmm. 927 01:10:14,878 --> 01:10:17,881 Where were the women? Under blankets. 928 01:10:17,881 --> 01:10:20,750 They were under blankets? Now, you said the blankets were wet. 929 01:10:20,750 --> 01:10:22,419 Mm-hmm. 930 01:10:22,419 --> 01:10:25,989 How did the blankets get wet? 'Cause we had 'em in the bucket. 931 01:10:25,989 --> 01:10:27,491 Bucket of water. 932 01:10:32,696 --> 01:10:38,568 Isn't it true, Commissioner Sambor and Fire Commissioner Richmond, 933 01:10:38,568 --> 01:10:45,041 that you in effect made a decision to use fire as a weapon in this instance? 934 01:10:45,041 --> 01:10:47,444 Absolutely not, sir. 935 01:10:49,546 --> 01:10:55,752 Well, you made a decision to let that fire burn until the bunker was destroyed. 936 01:10:55,752 --> 01:10:57,854 Isn't that right? When you talk about a weapon, 937 01:10:57,854 --> 01:11:01,758 you talk about a weapon as being used against probably individuals, 938 01:11:01,758 --> 01:11:06,229 and that was never a consideration, nor would I ever use it as a consideration. 939 01:11:06,229 --> 01:11:08,698 Well, Fire Commissioner Richmond, 940 01:11:08,698 --> 01:11:11,635 what did you understand the police commissioner was asking you to do? 941 01:11:11,635 --> 01:11:14,137 I would respond in the same way, Justice Kaufmann. 942 01:11:14,137 --> 01:11:16,205 There is no one that I know in city government... 943 01:11:16,205 --> 01:11:19,743 that would intentionally go out there to burn those people like that. 944 01:11:19,743 --> 01:11:21,545 There's no one that I know of could do that. 945 01:11:45,902 --> 01:11:50,073 You were aware in 1978, I assume, 946 01:11:50,073 --> 01:11:53,242 that a situation had developed... 947 01:11:53,242 --> 01:11:57,280 involving certain police officers and Delbert Africa? 948 01:11:57,280 --> 01:11:59,015 Yes, sir. 949 01:11:59,015 --> 01:12:01,150 Did you give any instructions... 950 01:12:01,150 --> 01:12:06,022 as to whether or not the officers who were specifically involved in that altercation... 951 01:12:06,022 --> 01:12:11,294 should or should not be included in the operation for May 13, 1985? 952 01:12:11,294 --> 01:12:13,497 I did not. 953 01:12:13,497 --> 01:12:20,303 Weren't you concerned that there might be some revenge motive... 954 01:12:20,303 --> 01:12:24,774 which may take the police action beyond the legal limits? 955 01:12:24,774 --> 01:12:26,443 I think there's no question there was, 956 01:12:26,443 --> 01:12:28,845 at least on the part of some policemen, residual anger... 957 01:12:28,845 --> 01:12:32,449 towards MOVE organization or members thereof-- 958 01:12:32,449 --> 01:12:33,883 No question about that. 959 01:12:37,286 --> 01:12:40,023 [ Lytton ] Would the court reporter please swear in the witnesses? 960 01:12:40,023 --> 01:12:42,459 Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth... 961 01:12:42,459 --> 01:12:45,194 so help you God? [ Both ] I do. 962 01:12:45,194 --> 01:12:51,000 Officer D'Ulisse, I understand that in 1978, you were present on August 8... 963 01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:55,505 during an altercation that occurred with Delbert Africa. 964 01:12:55,505 --> 01:12:57,206 Yes. 965 01:12:57,206 --> 01:12:58,975 And Officer Mulvihill? 966 01:12:58,975 --> 01:13:02,378 What does that have to do with May the 13th? 967 01:13:02,378 --> 01:13:04,581 The officer was tried and found not guilty of that offense. 968 01:13:04,581 --> 01:13:07,417 That was going to be my next statement, Mr. Mozenter. 969 01:13:07,417 --> 01:13:11,521 Officer, we understand that you were charged in connection with that case, 970 01:13:11,521 --> 01:13:14,824 and also we understand that there was a direct verdict... 971 01:13:14,824 --> 01:13:17,427 by Judge DiBona of not guilty in that case. 972 01:13:17,427 --> 01:13:19,295 Is that correct? That's correct. 973 01:13:20,930 --> 01:13:22,532 [ Man ] Stakeout police have just taken position. 974 01:13:22,532 --> 01:13:25,735 There must be movement somewhere in the Osage, 975 01:13:25,735 --> 01:13:32,408 and they're all scattering between 62nd and Osage and 63rd. 976 01:13:32,408 --> 01:13:35,211 They're running around like something's going on around here. 977 01:13:35,211 --> 01:13:38,615 [ Man ] These are live pictures. They are looking for something there. 978 01:13:38,615 --> 01:13:40,216 [ Harvey ] You can hear hollering. 979 01:13:40,216 --> 01:13:41,985 Where it was coming from, Larry, I don't know. 980 01:13:43,620 --> 01:13:46,255 [ Michael ] When the fire got real heavy, 981 01:13:46,255 --> 01:13:48,592 when we smelled all that smoke, and we couldn't breathe, 982 01:13:48,592 --> 01:13:52,228 then that's when we started yelling that "kids coming out," 983 01:13:52,228 --> 01:13:58,935 and then they opened the garage door and opened the cellar window. 984 01:13:58,935 --> 01:14:00,770 [ Brown ] What did you say? What did you yell? 985 01:14:00,770 --> 01:14:03,707 We were saying, "We wanna come out!" 986 01:14:03,707 --> 01:14:05,975 "We wanna come out"? 987 01:14:05,975 --> 01:14:08,478 And what did the other children do? Did they do the same thing? 988 01:14:08,478 --> 01:14:10,113 Yeah. 989 01:14:10,113 --> 01:14:14,350 Were any of the children crying? Yeah. We all was. 990 01:14:15,985 --> 01:14:18,287 Why had you all gone to the back alley? 991 01:14:18,287 --> 01:14:20,757 To prevent the escape of MOVE members. 992 01:14:20,757 --> 01:14:22,992 Well, what did you expect to find in that alley, 993 01:14:22,992 --> 01:14:25,128 the reason why you took a machine gun back there? 994 01:14:27,664 --> 01:14:29,566 I had no idea what to expect in the alley. 995 01:14:35,839 --> 01:14:37,974 [ Man ] Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth... 996 01:14:37,974 --> 01:14:40,076 and nothing but the truth so help you God? [ Officers ] I do. 997 01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:48,251 Your vantage point was to the back of 6221. 998 01:14:48,251 --> 01:14:49,986 Is that correct? Yes. 999 01:14:49,986 --> 01:14:52,922 All right. Was there any time... 1000 01:14:52,922 --> 01:14:56,693 that you observed either with your eyes or your ears... 1001 01:14:56,693 --> 01:14:59,328 people attempting to come out of that house? 1002 01:14:59,328 --> 01:15:04,968 I heard a female scream, "Don't shoot. We're coming out." 1003 01:15:04,968 --> 01:15:08,137 At that time Officer Trudel who was at the rear window-- 1004 01:15:08,137 --> 01:15:10,439 Officer Trudel said, "They're coming out." 1005 01:15:13,476 --> 01:15:15,311 If you look carefully, by the way-- 1006 01:15:15,311 --> 01:15:17,446 If you can take a look so I can point to the monitor here, 1007 01:15:17,446 --> 01:15:21,484 right here is a line of stakeout squad officers, 1008 01:15:21,484 --> 01:15:24,888 and they seem to be lined up at the ready waiting for something to happen. 1009 01:15:24,888 --> 01:15:28,191 They seem to be waiting for something to come out of that house. 1010 01:15:28,191 --> 01:15:30,794 [ Lytton ] You said that Rad tried to take Tomaso out? 1011 01:15:30,794 --> 01:15:32,696 Mm-hmm. 1012 01:15:32,696 --> 01:15:37,567 He was on his knees, and he had Tomaso around his stomach like that. 1013 01:15:37,567 --> 01:15:40,403 On his knees? Was he crawling along the garage floor? 1014 01:15:40,403 --> 01:15:41,971 Rad was. 1015 01:15:55,151 --> 01:15:58,021 [ Trudel ] Now, when they did come out, I see the smaller child come out, 1016 01:15:58,021 --> 01:15:59,856 and then an adult male come out right behind them. 1017 01:15:59,856 --> 01:16:02,659 Yeah. And he stood up... 1018 01:16:02,659 --> 01:16:06,763 and aimed a rifle up in the direction of Officer Bariana's position... 1019 01:16:06,763 --> 01:16:09,666 and fired, like, four or five quick shots. 1020 01:16:09,666 --> 01:16:12,035 Did Conrad have a rifle or a gun... 1021 01:16:12,035 --> 01:16:15,504 when he went out the garage door? 1022 01:16:15,504 --> 01:16:17,040 Mm-mmm. 1023 01:16:17,040 --> 01:16:19,042 What did he use to open the bolt on the door? 1024 01:16:19,042 --> 01:16:20,710 A big monkey wrench. 1025 01:16:20,710 --> 01:16:23,112 A big monkey wrench? 1026 01:16:23,112 --> 01:16:25,581 Are you certain it was a rifle and not a monkey wrench or something of that nature? 1027 01:16:25,581 --> 01:16:29,052 No, sir. When this-- I know a rifle, believe me. 1028 01:16:29,052 --> 01:16:31,554 And when this male pointed this rifle up, 1029 01:16:31,554 --> 01:16:36,292 I-- In other words, I could hear sound and see muzzle flashes. 1030 01:16:36,292 --> 01:16:40,129 Now, you say that some shooting started. Did you hear shooting? 1031 01:16:40,129 --> 01:16:42,431 It was a-- [ Imitating Gunfire ] 1032 01:16:42,431 --> 01:16:44,567 Like it was just going after-- 1033 01:16:44,567 --> 01:16:48,237 Like it was going-- Bullets were going after each other. Like-- 1034 01:16:48,237 --> 01:16:50,206 Bullets were going one right after the other. [ Imitating Gunfire ] 1035 01:16:50,206 --> 01:16:52,441 Something like that? Yeah. 1036 01:16:52,441 --> 01:16:55,311 Sergeant Griffiths, could you just by rapping on the table... 1037 01:16:55,311 --> 01:16:59,248 indicate the sound the best you can recall of those shots? 1038 01:16:59,248 --> 01:17:01,417 It was not automatic fire, if that's what you're asking. 1039 01:17:01,417 --> 01:17:03,987 Okay, could you just try and indicate for me what it sounded like? 1040 01:17:03,987 --> 01:17:07,724 [ Tapping Three Times ] 1041 01:17:07,724 --> 01:17:10,894 Did you ever fire your weapons after the bomb was dropped, Officer Mulvihill? 1042 01:17:10,894 --> 01:17:12,561 No, sir. 1043 01:17:12,561 --> 01:17:15,899 Officer D'Ulisse? No, sir. 1044 01:17:15,899 --> 01:17:19,836 He had two officers taking him out, and then they started shooting again, 1045 01:17:19,836 --> 01:17:24,073 and then they brought him back in, and then they locked the thing back up. 1046 01:17:28,978 --> 01:17:31,414 Did you see the child actually go back into the house? 1047 01:17:31,414 --> 01:17:33,282 [ Trudel ] I believe the child went back into the house. 1048 01:17:33,282 --> 01:17:35,084 All right. 1049 01:17:40,323 --> 01:17:44,660 Do you have any idea why that person may have gone back into the fire? 1050 01:17:44,660 --> 01:17:47,163 My own idea? What I think? 1051 01:17:47,163 --> 01:17:48,932 Yes. 1052 01:17:48,932 --> 01:17:53,102 I just think they went back into that fire... 1053 01:17:53,102 --> 01:17:54,904 sort of to regroup. 1054 01:17:55,604 --> 01:17:57,874 Well, 1055 01:17:57,874 --> 01:18:00,176 just as a human being myself... 1056 01:18:02,178 --> 01:18:05,849 I'm just trying to imagine myself in that situation... 1057 01:18:05,849 --> 01:18:10,353 and behind me there's a raging inferno... 1058 01:18:10,353 --> 01:18:14,423 and in front of me there are people who are saying "come on out." 1059 01:18:15,458 --> 01:18:18,194 I'm trying to imagine... 1060 01:18:18,194 --> 01:18:21,630 what would cause me to turn back and run into the fire. 1061 01:18:25,969 --> 01:18:29,572 I don't think we said anything other than come down to us. 1062 01:18:29,572 --> 01:18:31,307 Come on down with your hands up-- 1063 01:18:31,307 --> 01:18:37,646 the normal police jargon for calling the suspects to come down. 1064 01:18:37,646 --> 01:18:39,749 Mm-hmm. 1065 01:18:39,749 --> 01:18:42,986 I'm just saying that I'm trying to put myself in that person's skin. 1066 01:18:42,986 --> 01:18:45,822 Sir, I don't think you ever could. These were MOVE members. 1067 01:18:46,756 --> 01:18:50,559 Well, you see, 1068 01:18:51,660 --> 01:18:55,932 I knew a lot of those people... 1069 01:18:55,932 --> 01:18:58,667 as individuals and as human beings. 1070 01:18:58,667 --> 01:19:02,605 A lot of people know MOVE from what they may have seen. 1071 01:19:02,605 --> 01:19:04,841 But I had a lot of dealings with them, 1072 01:19:04,841 --> 01:19:07,710 and I knew them to be more than MOVE people. 1073 01:19:07,710 --> 01:19:12,148 I knew many of them by name, as human beings. 1074 01:19:14,784 --> 01:19:16,585 It's probably a rhetorical question. 1075 01:19:16,585 --> 01:19:18,521 I don't think you-- From the way you've responded, 1076 01:19:18,521 --> 01:19:19,956 I don't think you can answer that. 1077 01:19:19,956 --> 01:19:21,457 No, sir. 1078 01:19:32,468 --> 01:19:34,904 And then what happened to Tomaso? 1079 01:19:34,904 --> 01:19:38,341 Rhonda was going like this on his back. [ Tapping ] 1080 01:19:39,242 --> 01:19:41,911 Rhonda had Tomaso? Mm-hmm. 1081 01:19:41,911 --> 01:19:45,481 And she was hitting him on his back? 1082 01:19:45,481 --> 01:19:47,350 Was he crying then? 1083 01:19:48,551 --> 01:19:50,486 He had stopped crying? 1084 01:19:50,486 --> 01:19:52,621 Did you hear him cry anymore... 1085 01:19:52,621 --> 01:19:55,124 after she was trying to pat him and hit him on his back? 1086 01:19:55,124 --> 01:19:57,060 Only one time. 1087 01:19:57,060 --> 01:19:59,128 And then what happened? He stopped. 1088 01:19:59,128 --> 01:20:00,563 He stopped? 1089 01:20:06,802 --> 01:20:08,938 And then what happened? 1090 01:20:08,938 --> 01:20:12,876 I didn't hear nobody, and I just ran out of there. 1091 01:20:19,182 --> 01:20:21,217 [ Sirens Wailing ] [ Harvey ] Oh, my goodness. 1092 01:20:22,485 --> 01:20:24,187 Well, Larry, 1093 01:20:24,187 --> 01:20:28,691 the flames are probably now leaping, um-- 1094 01:20:28,691 --> 01:20:31,460 uh, 10 stories high. 1095 01:20:31,460 --> 01:20:35,164 It just looked like something was completely engulfed. What you're seeing now-- 1096 01:20:35,164 --> 01:20:37,733 [ Larry ] You're telling me that the flames are now leaping high? 1097 01:20:52,148 --> 01:20:57,820 I remember Ramona coming from the rear of the MOVE yard over the fence and down. 1098 01:20:57,820 --> 01:21:00,323 She had started to walk down, stopped. 1099 01:21:00,323 --> 01:21:02,225 And she would wave with her hand like this. 1100 01:21:04,193 --> 01:21:06,529 And then I see Birdie. 1101 01:21:06,529 --> 01:21:09,432 The way I describe it, it looked like he literally came through the fire. 1102 01:21:10,833 --> 01:21:12,701 There was a board on fire there, 1103 01:21:12,701 --> 01:21:16,372 and he hopped over that and he started coming down. 1104 01:21:16,372 --> 01:21:20,009 What did you see when you first ran out of the house? 1105 01:21:20,009 --> 01:21:21,744 I saw fire and stuff. 1106 01:21:21,744 --> 01:21:23,746 You saw fire? Where did you see the fire? 1107 01:21:23,746 --> 01:21:26,649 The tree was on fire, and the house was. 1108 01:21:26,649 --> 01:21:30,586 And the house was on fire? How about on the ground? Was anything on the ground on fire? 1109 01:21:30,586 --> 01:21:33,222 The pieces of the tree was falling down. 1110 01:21:33,222 --> 01:21:35,959 Pieces of fire from the tree were falling down? 1111 01:21:38,861 --> 01:21:42,765 Did the adults tell you what to do if you all got out of the house? 1112 01:21:42,765 --> 01:21:45,268 They told us to stay together. 1113 01:21:47,070 --> 01:21:48,837 [ Berghaier ] Ramona's up top. 1114 01:21:48,837 --> 01:21:50,606 [ Lytton ] She's on the walkway, the elevated walkway? That's right. 1115 01:21:50,606 --> 01:21:52,608 Birdie's in the driveway. 1116 01:21:52,608 --> 01:21:55,945 Now, as they're coming down, Ramona's a little bit in the front. 1117 01:21:55,945 --> 01:22:00,249 But at one time does Ramona stop... 1118 01:22:00,249 --> 01:22:05,854 and she goes over to the railing and reached over and tried to pick Birdie up. 1119 01:22:05,854 --> 01:22:08,691 He got I believe one foot, maybe two-- I don't know-- 1120 01:22:08,691 --> 01:22:12,761 on the bottom of the concrete wall where the fence meets. 1121 01:22:12,761 --> 01:22:14,197 Okay? 1122 01:22:14,197 --> 01:22:16,399 And she either let go or slipped or whatever. 1123 01:22:16,399 --> 01:22:18,701 But Birdie fell back. He went back. 1124 01:22:18,701 --> 01:22:22,071 And I remember he didn't get a chance to put his hands down to break his fall. 1125 01:22:22,071 --> 01:22:24,540 The impression I was left with-- He landed square on his head. 1126 01:22:27,977 --> 01:22:31,414 If you're watching somebody or somebody falls... 1127 01:22:31,414 --> 01:22:33,882 and you hear a thud, 1128 01:22:33,882 --> 01:22:36,085 you can almost feel it. 1129 01:22:36,085 --> 01:22:38,654 That's the same sensation I think we all got-- 1130 01:22:38,654 --> 01:22:41,757 that we knew Birdie was hurt at this time. 1131 01:22:41,757 --> 01:22:44,627 It was an actual feeling. We could all feel it. 1132 01:22:52,135 --> 01:22:54,637 [ Helicopter Whirring ] 1133 01:22:58,341 --> 01:23:00,776 I remember Birdie just laying there, not doing anything. 1134 01:23:00,776 --> 01:23:03,512 I said, "Tommy, here. Take my shotgun." I said, "I'm gonna go get the kid." 1135 01:23:03,512 --> 01:23:06,249 And I remember him saying to me, "I'll cover you." 1136 01:23:06,249 --> 01:23:08,584 - [ Lytton ] Officer Mellor saying that? - That's right. 1137 01:23:11,754 --> 01:23:16,259 At one point did I start out to get Birdie, 1138 01:23:16,259 --> 01:23:19,528 and that's the first time I realized Officer Tursi was behind me. 1139 01:23:19,528 --> 01:23:23,366 He grabbed my left shoulder. He said, "Don't go out there, Jim. It's a trap." 1140 01:23:23,366 --> 01:23:25,268 What was your concern, Officer? 1141 01:23:25,268 --> 01:23:27,536 I don't know how to explain it other than a sixth sense or something... 1142 01:23:27,536 --> 01:23:31,040 that there was something wrong in the way Ramona went down. 1143 01:23:31,040 --> 01:23:35,311 I just felt something was incorrect or not right about that situation. 1144 01:23:35,311 --> 01:23:39,682 I stopped him from going out right at that time. That's all. 1145 01:23:39,682 --> 01:23:42,218 I was scared to death. I just didn't wanna let that kid lay there like that. 1146 01:23:46,389 --> 01:23:48,057 [ Lytton ] So what did you do? 1147 01:23:48,057 --> 01:23:50,893 My priorities at that time were the kid. 1148 01:23:50,893 --> 01:23:54,663 We're trying to say to him, "Son, come over here. Come over here." 1149 01:23:54,663 --> 01:23:56,832 We're trying to get him to come to us. 1150 01:23:56,832 --> 01:23:59,635 This is the result of Officer Tursi saying be careful. 1151 01:23:59,635 --> 01:24:02,838 "It's not right" or something to that effect. "It doesn't feel right." 1152 01:24:02,838 --> 01:24:04,773 Inadvertently, Birdie gets up. 1153 01:24:06,475 --> 01:24:09,145 I remember him taking a few steps and went down in the water. 1154 01:24:09,145 --> 01:24:10,879 He fell? 1155 01:24:10,879 --> 01:24:13,316 I interpreted it as a fall or stumble or whatever. 1156 01:24:13,316 --> 01:24:14,917 As soon as he went down in the water, 1157 01:24:14,917 --> 01:24:17,886 at the same time that I seen that, Officer Tursi's right with me. 1158 01:24:17,886 --> 01:24:20,055 I said, "Mike, I'm getting the kid," 1159 01:24:20,055 --> 01:24:21,924 and he said, "I got you covered." 1160 01:24:23,759 --> 01:24:25,861 I remember I went in underneath with my right hand, 1161 01:24:25,861 --> 01:24:28,697 and I scooped him underneath his left arm. 1162 01:24:28,697 --> 01:24:31,267 [ Lytton ] Was his head submerged under the water? 1163 01:24:31,267 --> 01:24:33,436 I don't remember. As soon as he hit the water, I went. 1164 01:24:52,388 --> 01:24:54,423 I remember as soon as I scooped him up, 1165 01:24:54,423 --> 01:24:57,626 he said to me, "Don't shoot me. Don't shoot me." 1166 01:25:09,071 --> 01:25:13,776 [ Brown ] When the police got you after you finally got out, 1167 01:25:13,776 --> 01:25:17,880 did they ask you anything about whether or not there were any kids still in the house... 1168 01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:19,715 or were there any other grown-ups still in the house? 1169 01:25:19,715 --> 01:25:21,317 Yeah. 1170 01:25:21,317 --> 01:25:23,819 You said there were other kids still there? Mm-hmm. 1171 01:25:23,819 --> 01:25:26,622 Do you remember who it was who was still in the house? 1172 01:25:26,622 --> 01:25:28,957 Tree, 1173 01:25:28,957 --> 01:25:30,926 Netta, 1174 01:25:30,926 --> 01:25:32,495 Tomaso and Melissa, 1175 01:25:32,495 --> 01:25:34,463 Phil, 1176 01:25:34,463 --> 01:25:37,833 and the big people were Theresa, Rhonda, 1177 01:25:37,833 --> 01:25:39,902 Paul, 1178 01:25:39,902 --> 01:25:42,438 Nick... 1179 01:25:42,438 --> 01:25:44,373 and Rad and C.K. 1180 01:25:56,452 --> 01:26:00,155 [ Sirens Wailing ] 1181 01:26:21,176 --> 01:26:25,714 [ Man ] Ramona Africa, the MOVE spokesperson in recent weeks, is in police custody tonight. 1182 01:26:25,714 --> 01:26:28,150 She was captured outside the MOVE compound... 1183 01:26:28,150 --> 01:26:31,687 sometime after the massive fire broke out there this afternoon. 1184 01:26:31,687 --> 01:26:33,822 [ Woman ] The child being treated here at Children's... 1185 01:26:33,822 --> 01:26:37,059 is suffering from second- and third-degree burns on his arms and legs. 1186 01:26:37,059 --> 01:26:40,329 All officials know at this point about his identity is that his last name is Africa. 1187 01:26:40,329 --> 01:26:43,466 [ Man ] All night long, an increasing number of firemen... 1188 01:26:43,466 --> 01:26:46,235 have been trying to battle what is now a six-alarm blaze. 1189 01:26:46,235 --> 01:26:49,171 [ Chris ] There's a lot more water being trained on it, 1190 01:26:49,171 --> 01:26:52,107 but it looks as though this is going to burn for a long, long time. 1191 01:27:18,066 --> 01:27:19,935 [ Goode ] We had a difficult problem. 1192 01:27:21,069 --> 01:27:23,071 We made a difficult decision. 1193 01:27:23,071 --> 01:27:26,575 It did not turn out as we intended. 1194 01:27:27,876 --> 01:27:30,946 As we face the coming days, 1195 01:27:30,946 --> 01:27:34,417 I ask your prayers for our city, 1196 01:27:34,417 --> 01:27:37,553 for the homeless families... 1197 01:27:37,553 --> 01:27:41,990 and for the families of those who've lost lives. 1198 01:28:06,882 --> 01:28:09,818 In the beginning, MOVE people... 1199 01:28:09,818 --> 01:28:14,457 were the most happiest bunch of people you could ever know. 1200 01:28:14,457 --> 01:28:20,262 We were a family-- peaceful, loving. 1201 01:28:20,262 --> 01:28:22,898 And in the beginning, 1202 01:28:22,898 --> 01:28:25,534 MOVE was harassed a great deal. 1203 01:28:27,169 --> 01:28:31,707 We were beat many, many times. 1204 01:28:33,108 --> 01:28:38,046 [ Voice Cracking ] We were jailed many, many times. 1205 01:28:39,482 --> 01:28:42,851 And I'm talking about a people... 1206 01:28:42,851 --> 01:28:46,522 who had feelings-- [ Sniffles ] 1207 01:28:46,522 --> 01:28:48,857 who are no different than you or I. 1208 01:29:06,942 --> 01:29:10,379 If the system can convict me of riot and conspiracy... 1209 01:29:10,379 --> 01:29:12,848 in a blatant situation like that... 1210 01:29:12,848 --> 01:29:17,986 where it's obvious to everybody-- the whole world-- that I did not riot, 1211 01:29:17,986 --> 01:29:21,624 then it should not be hard to imagine at all... 1212 01:29:21,624 --> 01:29:26,995 why and how this system convicted nine people of murdering one cop. 1213 01:29:26,995 --> 01:29:29,031 It's the same thing-- 1214 01:29:29,031 --> 01:29:32,868 that the system had one intention in both confrontations-- 1215 01:29:32,868 --> 01:29:37,840 to either kill MOVE people or to put us in prison as long as possible. 1216 01:29:37,840 --> 01:29:39,608 It's just that simple. 1217 01:29:50,419 --> 01:29:52,521 [ Rev. Washington ] Was it like being in a war? 1218 01:29:52,521 --> 01:29:57,526 There's just too many things are going on, to sit here and just say how you felt. 1219 01:29:57,526 --> 01:30:00,896 We felt-- I thought about the kids in the house. I thought about my kids. 1220 01:30:00,896 --> 01:30:04,933 I thought about a lot of things. But to sit here-- I don't know. 1221 01:30:04,933 --> 01:30:06,802 I couldn't answer that. Mm-hmm. 1222 01:30:09,672 --> 01:30:11,406 I am, uh-- 1223 01:30:11,406 --> 01:30:15,911 I've, uh, been sitting here listening for many days... 1224 01:30:17,613 --> 01:30:24,052 and I've read scores of pages of reports and testimony. 1225 01:30:24,052 --> 01:30:27,890 And it has all been-- all of it-- 1226 01:30:27,890 --> 01:30:30,526 uh, very depressing... 1227 01:30:30,526 --> 01:30:32,928 and very discouraging... 1228 01:30:32,928 --> 01:30:36,131 except what I've read about Officer Berghaier... 1229 01:30:36,131 --> 01:30:39,234 and what I've heard from Officer Berghaier. 1230 01:30:39,234 --> 01:30:44,239 And if there's any hope in this whole sorry situation, 1231 01:30:44,239 --> 01:30:47,375 it's because of that officer, and I wanna thank him. [ Berghaier ] Thank you, sir. 1232 01:31:11,567 --> 01:31:13,969 [ Brown ] I think you've done such a good job. 1233 01:31:13,969 --> 01:31:16,238 I'm gonna stop my questions now, 1234 01:31:16,238 --> 01:31:20,242 and I wanna thank you for taking all this time to come in here and chat with us. 1235 01:31:20,242 --> 01:31:22,477 That will bring a smile to your face, won't it? 1236 01:31:22,477 --> 01:31:24,680 And I wanna thank your dad, Mr. Ward. 1237 01:31:24,680 --> 01:31:26,815 Thank you very much for your cooperation. You're quite welcome. 1238 01:31:26,815 --> 01:31:28,917 And Mr. Shrager, of course. Thank you. 1239 01:31:28,917 --> 01:31:33,789 This will conclude this deposition of testimony... 1240 01:31:33,789 --> 01:31:36,825 of Michael, uh, Ward. 1241 01:32:01,216 --> 01:32:03,385 [ Brown ] As of today, 1242 01:32:03,385 --> 01:32:07,055 you the people, have all the principal facts... 1243 01:32:07,055 --> 01:32:10,626 which tell the story of the Osage Avenue tragedy. 1244 01:32:12,060 --> 01:32:16,064 Rarely has any community ever subjected itself... 1245 01:32:16,064 --> 01:32:19,001 to a public self-appraisal... 1246 01:32:19,001 --> 01:32:23,405 as painful and necessary as this has been. 1247 01:32:23,405 --> 01:32:27,876 But we believe that this process is absolutely necessary... 1248 01:32:27,876 --> 01:32:31,914 to prevent such a terrible thing from ever happening again. 1249 01:32:33,415 --> 01:32:37,319 And now I declare these public hearings... 1250 01:32:37,319 --> 01:32:40,288 to be in recess until further notice.